Is no sub a sin?

[Grand11]

I finally got my Klipsch in and running on Saturday (a different story all together), and the dedicated JBL S120PII 12" was suppossed to ship today. But it didn't, and I'd like some opinions on if I made a big mistake.

First, what I have: RC-35 center matched with a pair of RF-35s and RS-35s. My old system was a JBL SRS-120 sat+sub HTIB. Had it for 5 or 6 years. I list that so you can maybe understand where I'm comming from.

When I got the 5 speakers in on Friday and hooked them up, I was floored. They sound great. I needed to test them right away so I could start the RMA process if something was wrong but nothing was. In fact, I noticed that the RF-35 were handling the lows just fine. I began to worry if I'd have too much bottom end, but then told myself I could just cross over so the 12" handled everything below 40hz and take over where the RF's left off (they're about 37hz I think?).

Then I took a good look at my room and ran into another issue: the darn JBL sub was going to to be too big physically. It was going to go next to the RF on the left side, but I didn't have enough room from wall to speaker by about 3" (maybe a little more, forget the ammount). Sounds minor? Well consider on the other side I have a door and thus no play what so ever to push my setup over with (well maybe an inch, but you get the idea).

Putting two and two together, I ended up canceling the 12" sub. It sounds wonderful without a dedicated sub, but there's always that lingering doubt that maybe I should get something to fit in that space. I could hook up my old sub from the HTIB. It's actually a pair of downfiring 8", but very muddy compared to the RFs, and I'm not sure adding a couple more 8" is worth the effort.

Should I really work at finding a way to fit a sub into the space? If so, are there any good 10" models that would pair nice with RF-35s or should I just stay with hunting for 12"? Do any other movie watchers use no sub or am I alone here?

Am I a sinner?

[gcoker]

Grand, If your main listening is Movies I feel you are missing

out. Even though you main's are large enough to handle most

low frequencies, most movie sound tracks go down to 25 htz.

In addition the sub's internal amp adds the punch without

having to turn the volume on the main to high. You did'nt

say what your space limitations are? but the RW-8,RW-10 & 12

should fit into most areas and since they are front firing

they can be placed into cabinets. The RW-10 is not a bad sub

but I would go for the 12" model.

Go and Sin no more.

[dougdrake]

Also, if floor space is a challenge, you might consider the tubular design of SVS subs. They have a fairly small footprint, relative to some cube designs.

DD

[Grand11]

My old subwoofer is a dual 8", and is a tube design. (EDIT: oh wait, saw the website ... now I know wheat you're talking about and NO it's nothing like that).

As for sounds below 25Hz, my old system didn't drop below 40 so I'm not missing anymore than I was already.

But your right: power is an issue. It's hard to explain why there are room constraints. It's not so much the size of the room; it's the amount of entry ways it has (couldn't get a perfectly enclosed space). I have essentially 1 wall I can line my gear up against, as anything else placed anywhere else on the floor will impact traffic.

So the verdict seems to be: find a way to make the sub fit. Does anyone have some more suggestions on subs? SOmething with a small footprint but still compliments the 35s?

[Grand11]

I looked at the SVS 25-31PCi and that size looks perfect. Range almost as low as the JBL (it hit 22) and the dimensions are great (16" will need to be measured by that should fit in a corner nicely. My only complaint would be it looks like it's an exta $100 than the JBL ... such is life, eh?

OK comments: will the SVS 25-31PCi be a good match? I'm assuming this is an online-only store?

[chinoloco]

Get the sub if you want to really feel the rumble of a jet engine in the war movies.

If nothing else, thats why I have a sub.

[muleman]

my friend - GET A SUB!!! You wont ge that gut pounding sensation without one.

I have an SVS powered sub (the black box model) - its a killer...

[TheEAR]

NO SERIOUS HT IS MISSING A GREAT SUBWOOFER

Even if you have massive tower speakers capable of 20Hz like the Wilson X-1 Grand Slamm powered by a gargantuan Krell(the KING of bass slam)you NEED a subwoofer.

I have three tower speakers from the Klipsch RF7's to Dynaudio's Contour 3.3.And the complete HT experience is simply missing when the subs are OFF.

When my Sunfire,Klipsch,Velodyne,Aerial and Revel subs are working its a whole new high point I reach,a new experience.The rooms are energised with ease and fury well below the hearing range(when material calls the subs to do so).

Now even my smallest PC has at least two HT subs,bass is not just heard its FOR REAL.

Just try Pomp & Pipes Reference Recordings track 4 The Vickings...16 seconds in NO FULL RANGE SPEAKERS in the world can do justice.Not even close,you need serious subs.This track will abuse of anything lesser then a SVS Ultra like a rag doll.

My Aerial SW12 makes it glorious

So the bottom line is A SUB IS A MUST

[BBB]

No sub!!! Just how many times did you commit this act of turning on your system without using a woofer?

Oh never mind. Just say 5 Our Fathers with 10 Hail Marys and leave a few dollars in the bass bin on your way out of church.

[marksdad]

you wont be missing out really. i used to be really impressed with my sub, than i upgraded my entire system, now my sub is the weakest link, your 35's put out really decent low end, so until you get more room, enjoy

[busterfree]

A sub is a nice thing to have, but don't rush it. How big is you HT room? What are your listening levels? Have house or apartment? How much money to spend?...

I would recommend the CS-Ultra. At least, this is what I want. I have a NAD 2600A that would push it nicely. I had the 25-31CS. I was impressed. I thought the walls were gonna come down during the pod scene from Episode I.

[Grand11]

Interseting responses. Everything from don't rush it to how dare you

It looks like the SVS cylinders with thier 16" diameter footprint will fit just nicely (the round shape helps tons), but they're more money than the sub I ordered/cancelled by about $120 (This is just the 25-31). So it's money saving time (not to mention I would like the credit card to clear the old charge before putting a new one on).

Again, I could throw in a powered 8" sub into the mix but it just seems ... well wrong. I'd rather give the old HTIB to a friend and go subless for awhile.

So is the SVS 25-31 a good match to the R?-35 system?

It is somewhat comforting to see that not everyone thinks I'm insane

Oh the "small stuff": I have a house (no shared walls), and the HT is in the living room space downstairs. The room itself is "designated as mine", but it's still a high traffic zone because it acts as an access point to the garage, backyard, kitchen, and family room. That means alot of entryways, and alot of open floor space that needs to stay open to allow people to get by with ease (no funny side-steps required).

http://members.cox.net/grand11/ht01.jpg (what the heck are the url tags on this board?)

Here's an image I've been passing out so people can see my new 35s. Maybe this will give you an idea of my problem. If you look atthe sliding door on the side, you'll notice the door is up against the wall. That means someone needs to be able to get around my RF-35 to get outside. So I can't really push my theater over (it would be off center anyway) because it would block access to the backyard.

On the other side of the HT, The lamp can go (I was planning removing it) but there is only about 14-15" from RF-35 to the wall. Most 12" subs are a good 17". As it turns out, the RF-35 doesn't go back-to-the-wall, so technically I could drop a SVS back there in the corner (the round shape will let it fit without hitting the RF, but only by an inch). If you see the move rack against the wall, you should know that the rack ends right where the entry way to the garage begins, so I can't push that over and put a sub there.

Finally you may notice the back of the couch is off center. That's because the opposite corner has a wet bar (converted to a snack bar) and in order to walk by the couch it needed to sit off center. Directly behind the couch is also another entry way, this time to the kitchen. End result: sub can't go to either side ofthe couch because it would close the walk route. Sub can't go behind it because it blocks the kitchen.

Finally the back wall ... wel there is none. Space just flows into the family room.

If you guys want more pictures, I'll provide them, but the front wall inthe corner with the lamp seems to be the only feesable spot for a sub, and SVS is the only 12" model that would fit. I hope this gives you an idea of where I'm comming from.

[avman]

that jbl sub you cancelled is a very nice offering from that company.

your whole system's performance will improve w/ a GOOD sub.

don't even think about putting your old sub in your system.

as deep as my klf-30's dig, adding the rsw-15 took EVERYTHING to the next level!

avman.

[fabulousfrankie]

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Range almost as low as the JBL (it hit 22)...

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You're going by JBL's rated lower extension limit which is misleading, they don't specify if 22hz is -3dB or -20dB. When Tom Nousaine measured it, he indicated it's low end extension limit was 41hz in his room. With the SVS', you can usually expect 2-3hz lower extension than it's tuning point. If you desire even deep extension w/out any extra cost, before you order fire off an email saying you want it retuned to 22hz. They do this for free and then you can have useable extension to 20hz unless you're room isn't extrodinarily huge.

[Colin]

Yes, my child, NO sub-woofer support for the great action movies available now for music and movie reproduction systems IS a sin.

This is NOT one of the famous sins forgotten when Mel Brooks dropped the 15 Commandants (History of the World, Part One). This is a sin of omission. To neglect a sub-woofer in the HT is to enter a street race with a Yugo. You just havent got the right stuff. Although most movies do NOT have plenty of sub-30Hz information, the action genre does have a lot of demanding, mid and upper bass heavy sequences.

Thankfully, penance is easy. First, buy yourself as powerful a sub as you can fit and afford. Next, write us a mea culpa along the lines of you guys are right, a sub makes a really big difference, I never shouldve doubted, I should have listen to you guys in the first place!

[fabulousfrankie]

If you want to read the review on the JBL, look for my post in the Subwoofer forum about the updated nousaine list, you can also see how it fares against other subwoofer that TN has tested(including an older SVS).

[Grand11]

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On 8/26/2003 11:50:54 AM avman wrote:

that jbl sub you cancelled is a very nice offering from that company.

your whole system's performance will improve w/ a GOOD sub.

don't even think about putting your old sub in your system.

as deep as my klf-30's dig, adding the rsw-15 took EVERYTHING to the next level!

avman.

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I had a feeling the old sub would be a waste so I didn't even bother trying.

As for the company, I'll go ahead and endorse them: www.acousticsounddesign.com. Worked with Mike Embers, and was very pleased. Got my whole setup and ended up cancelling the sub. You may recall an earlier thread I posted that I was unsure but had ordered my 35s from him: well they came in and I couldn't be happier. The SN sticker is still on them to boot: they were just removed from the box; not the unit. Anyway, he is technically unauthorized, so take it as you will, but the prices are very good and they offer thier own warranties (to make up for the one you've voided by going unauthorized.)

My only complaints would have been he was a little slow in getting me my tracking number (I got the tracking number the same day the package arived) and that the units were not double-boxed (but they survived so no biggie).

Anyway, we'll see if I can survive the month and then get a sub. SHould I stay with a 12" (which basically means I have to get an SVS) or should I look at some 10" models (smaller so more options)?

[Grand11]

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On 8/26/2003 12:09:53 PM fabulousfrankie wrote:

You're going by JBL's rated lower extension limit which is misleading, they don't specify if 22hz is -3dB or -20dB. When Tom Nousaine measured it, he indicated it's low end extension limit was 41hz in his room. With the SVS', you can usually expect 2-3hz lower extension than it's tuning point. If you desire even deep extension w/out any extra cost, before you order fire off an email saying you want it retuned to 22hz. They do this for free and then you can have useable extension to 20hz unless you're room isn't extrodinarily huge.

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Wow, thanks for the tip! The SVS is "sounding" better and better with each bit of info I get.