Amplification....

[maxg]

Over the years of posting and reading on this site I have noticed that there is a total obsession with amplification, almost to the exclusion of everything else.

On the face of it this seems to be somewhat odd and I cant help asking myself how much influence does amplification really have beyond a certain point and in relation to all the other factors that go into making a decent system.

Trying to be a little pseudo-scientific about this assume for the sake of argument that there are just 3 factors that influence a system's sound - the equipment, the source and finally the environment (room in the case of home audio).

If we further assume that each of the above carries an approximately equal weighting (big assumption) then we are left with the system being responsible for one third of the sound's quality (whatever that is).

If we further disect "system" into speakers, source player, pre-amp and amp(s) and then add in interconnects, speaker cables, power cables, power supplies and so on we start to get an impression of the relative importance of amplification.

Now I am not saying that you cannot go horribly wrong with amplification (been there - done that - used to have a Yamaha surround sound amp acting as a pre-amp for a Rotel 200wpc power amp driving Heresy's!!!), but I am saying that once you find a reasonable match the law of diminishing returns is going to set in in a rather big way.

On my own system I have all but forgotten the amps over the last year or so and concentrated on the source pick-up. Obviously the biggest change to my sound has been the migration from CD (and latterly SACD) to vinyl but beyond that changes to the cartridge, phono-stage (which is an amp I suppose) and even the arm have made dramatic differences. Far more dramatic I suppose than any further change to my little push pull KT88 amps.

I should state for the record that none of this is meant to be a critism of anyone on this board - I just find the focus on amplification to be a little baffling is all...

Anyone else feel the same way? Am I missing some thing crucial?

[marksdad]

i do follow your logic dean, i see many post where utmost voulme is the goal, and i see the equipment they are pushing, and i wonder how can this be done and still have soundstage, dynamics.....many amps are only good for a percentege of thier stated capabilities, or the speaks are not large enough, or the downstream is lacking. all aspects of a system need to be done to exacting owner specifications, i mean, power is not the end all. how good does music or ht come through when the sourse is the cheapest you can get from the discount store? i do not mean to sound negative as you stated dean, but i began as many do, with a need and the ability to listen to critiques. these forums have lead me to a new and calmer life via sound, beautiful wonderful sound. every audiophile and i mean that as the definition not the more commonly used snob monicor, has developed thier ear past the ordinary, insted of more i have gone to better, i to went from cd to sacd, and am now looking into vinyl, the goal is to refine the listening experience, there are few things in life that take your breath away, a fine recording, delivered with authority and delicacy, is one of them, funny enough, you do not need volume to obtain this. i have plenty of excess power, but i did not purchase for the overall power, i bought because of the manner in which it is delivered, i listen in the mornings as my son sleeps and i set the dial to about -50 which is maybe 50-60 db, and it is such a joy to sit and listen, to experience not just listen, i guess this is what the quest is all about. i have tried a few times to explain this, without being controvercial, but my manner of speaking is direct and sometimes irritates those with very thin skin so many times i say nothing. i also think you are right about the other 2 factors you spoke about

[mobile homeless]

Max, this is a good point and a valid one at that. I think it's important to focus on the whole chain. And at the surface, it might seem amplification is the main point, Max. But if you go back through here, you will see countless posts on:

- Turntables

- Cartridges

- CD players

- DACS

- Vinyl vs Digital

- Room interaction

- musicality / detail /resolution

- Crossovers

- Cable

- Modifying all of the above

- MUSIC

- System setup

- Speaker Placement

- listen goals

- philosophy behind it

- System Synergy

Among others. The forum movement is living and breathing and constantly shifting. This is the Klipsch Forum so speakers are the starting point of common interest on here, with high efficiency being another factor. So the next in the chain is the HEART of the matter, which is amplification, whether going with a receiver, integrated, or separate preamp and amplifier. Here there seems some of the biggest variety of starting points. And the various topologies and theories abound. The tubes vs solid state issue is where I started on this board and spent a good bit of my focus on in posting time as I was surprised how many were using solid state amplifiers with these speakers that seems to completely OPEN UP and achieve their best with tube amplification, actually more so than the average speaker. Indeed, I think that in some ways, Heritage Klipsch benefit the MOST from quality amplification of the tube variety.

But all along, there has been heavy focus on the other aspects with the importance and focus via the forum shifting. We went through a HUGE vinyl focus awhile back, with a LARGE majority of forum members either sampling vinyl again, of making a HUGE upgrade in their vinyl playback. On my hard drive, I have all the pictures and recommendations I have posted over the years, each in a separate folder with labels like turntables (which include cartridges and styli), preamp, amp, digital, tubes, cable, crossovers, and various speakers with a focus on CW. OF course, there is a more general catch all for the images too. You would be surprised at the balance!

I think many, including myself, have written of the importance of SYSTEM SYNERGY and how EVERY aspect of the chain is important. I fully believe this and it starts with the SOURCE. I think part of the reason you even went to vinyl was due to this forum, and many, many posts were given trying to convince you of this, until you heard it for yourself via someone close by. I find it ironic you bring this up seeing as how we have PERSONALLY discussed turntables, cartridges, tubes, tube amps, setup, speaker placement, vinyl shopping, cable, system synergy, racks, listening traits etc etc etc. If anything, this forum has ebbed and flowed within the audio chain.

OF course, tube amplification has been a big focus. And I think that quality amplification has a big impact but once you get to a certain point, as you have, you think of other parameters. I happen to think that ALL THE PARTS IN THE CHAIN have weight and have said as much in many a post. The source is EXTEMELY important as you have come to find out. Ditto with the room and placement, which can totally make or break a system. Unfortunately, the room is something we have less control over and varies with each home. Thus, components get more focus as the common ground.

But I do think many on this place experience a quantum leap when switching to tubes from mediocre solid state. Since Klipsch speakers, and Heritage in particular, seem so sensitive to whats up front, the amp and source get first dibs. But I do agree that MORE FOCUS needs to be on the quality of the source and the whole chain stated in the post.

To wrap this meandering post up, I think this forum has a healthy focus on all the aspects and is constantly shifting. But amplification and the source do get the most focus after the various Klipsch speakers etc. I just dont see a total focus on amplification like you do. Indeed, you have benefited from the info within this forum from each and every aspect of the chain from what I recall. But the point is a good one in that we need to constantly remind ourselves of the whole picture and the importance of each component in the chain.

Ultimately, we have to bring the focus back to the most important aspect of all: The Music and it enjoyment. Oh...and tube amps....we cant forget tube amps. Heh....

Speaking of which, you still listening to those crummy amps?

kh

[Chris Robinson]

Kelly, as usual, great post. It's a really fine summary of our audio quest, in toto.

I've been off the Forum this weekend, spending time with the kids and listening to my 2-channel system. During the listening sessions, I've been browsing the "Dope from Hope" and have rediscovered some jewels in there.

One the points that PWK made in an August, 1980 interview with "Audio" magazine, was that his chain of logic (as a designer) started with the speaker and worked its way back to the source. I thought it was an interesting way of looking at why we're drawn to low distortion, low power amplifiers, which, in many instances, are tube-based.

I.e.,

** "the higher the efficiency, the lower the distortion ... Power output with low distortion are the two primary criteria. You can put one first and the other second, either way, since after all the two are directly related mathematically."

** "Third in importance in the polar pattern, whether the speaker radiates into the angle you want to cover.

** "And last, probably LEAST important, is the effective frequency response. What you really buy in a loudspeaker is horsepower output. In horn loudspeakers, the efficiency -- the horsepower output, call it -- is typically one to three orders of magnitude higher and the distortion proportionately lower than in a direct radiator. Admittedly, the direct radiator is the less expensive, "cost effective" approach, and it will never be replaced because horns are vastly more expensive to build. But if you look at it in terms of horsepower per unit cost, then the horn suddenly becomes much more cost effective -- raising the point that the total music system may cost less for a given level of performance if the speakers cost more and yet require a much smaller amplifier. This brings in my much-quoted remark that what this country needs is a good five-watt amplifier."

Finally, PWK says, "I don't even consider myself a member of the general public. I know that my own requirements in a loudspeaker are those I've discussed. Judging from what contact I have with the general public, though, I conclude the 99 percent of the general public doesn't even know what accuracy of reproduction is. My company is for the one percent composed of perfectionists who buy these expensive speakers."

Well, I say the vast majority of the posters here (with a few noteworthy exceptions) fall into that one percent. Personally, the Klipschorn really floats my boat when combined with the 2A3 tube and a tube rectified 6SN7 pre-amp. They don't need to be JFL products. The Wright system sounded wonderful with these gorgeous cornerhorns. All they need is a really fine amp that gets the first few watts right.

I couldn't be happier listening to the music has I hear it now, and I have no desire whatsoever to do anything further right now than to do just that!

[Chris Robinson]

Speaking of gorgeous cornerhorns, here is a photo of the "Rochester" acquistion by Doug, currently resting in my living awaiting the completion of his next house.

[maxg]

Woah....

I wasnt trying to say that the only thing discussed on here is amplification - far from it. I was only pointing out that it seems to get a disproportionate coverage in comparison to the other aspects of the system.

For the record, and to confirm what Kelly has stated, my system is as it is now largely due to the imput from this very forum and I would be the last one to deny it.

And yes - I am still using those crummy amps !!!

In fact that was largely the point of the post. It became obvious to me that my amplification (both amps and pre-amp) were no longer the weakest link in my chain. Going further, I still dont regard them as such. My next step (planned - we will see in the future what comes) is a new TT. I am planning to keep the arm, cartridge and the phono stage and get something rather better to run them on.

In the light of my recent experience in switching from the BPS to the Clear audio Virtuoso that new TT should sport 2 arms. That will allow me to choose another cartridge for rock (not sure what yet - not another bps).

On the ampification side I have often talked about moving into SET. The only thing that holds me back is the possibility of moving to other speakers in the future that would simply need more watts to run. Ultimately 45 watts of push pull may not be as good as 3 watts of SET sonically but it is a lot more flexible in terms of speaker choices.

And having said that I know my speakers would benefit from 100 watts of amplification - were it available to them.

[maxg]

Why does Marksdad think I am Dean?

[marksdad]

i read your post at 3 am, and for some odd reason i thought you were dead, as i had just read a few of his posts, i am truly sorry, guess i should wake up before posting, or at least have a little more coffee, made me laugh though

[JCturboT]

----------------

On 9/1/2003 9:27:55 AM marksdad wrote:

i read your post at 3 am, and for some odd reason i thought you were dead----------------

marksdad,

The coffee is on me-get some sleep will ya !

Jeff

[NOSValves]

I got a chuckle out of that too ! Funny typo

I personally change out amplifiers almost daily as a rebuild them. I find at moderate listening levels they all can be very similar if the topology of the circuits are similar. The only real major difference when you compare most 15 to 20 Watt amps to my 60 Watt Mark III's seems to be in the ease of presentation. The Mark III just seem to glide through the music effortlessly and also the notes or decay seems to last longer or just hang there but this aspect is subtle. I say once you have a descent amplifier it takes a boat load of money to better it by a large margin. I would suggest people play with all other aspects of there system once the amplifier and speakers are of reasonable quality.

Now when you really want to Jam that is where the extra ummph of more powerful amps make a huge difference. The soundstage and detail can still be achieved if you have seemingly endless headroom is what I have found. When playing any hard hitting music at say 5 watts average the transient peaks can easily hit 20 watts if the amp is capable of producing them with ease other wise conjestion is easily noticed. The thing is it takes a 40 to 60 watt amp to do it with ease. Is this all that important .... Not really who listened very often at these volumes ! Not me but it sure is fun when you feel like it or want to show off to a none believer.

Craig

PS

I have limited experience of only 2 years in tube audio so my opinion should be taken with a grain of salt (Heck I think I'll add this line to my Signature !)

[leok]

maxg,

maybe you look like dean?

The focus on amps may be, in part, due to the ss dark ages (1970 - 2000) give or take a few years depending on a person's susceptability to marketing hype. SS was presented as essentially perfect. Since they were "perfect" they must all sound the same. And since they are "perfect" the problem must be something else. Personally, I (and I'm an EE who knew better) didn't figure it out until 1999 (maybe '98) .. tried a few experiments and found out that the reason my Forte-IIs were so disappointing was, in fact, the "perfect" ss NAD amps I was using.

In some ways, that puts us back 30 years. We're back to trying to find a "perfect" or at least decent amplifier. And, short of that, we must find an imperfect technology (like tubes) and optimize it for our particular applications (speakers, houses, ..). That has only become somewhat easier in that there are a lot of excellent sources of amplifier technology now, from smaller businesses and individuals, actually trying to provide good amplification. till, the problem is very tricky. My finding that my parafeed SET, derived from a Moondog, had considerable trouble with the Chorus-II is an example.

I think the amplifier/speaker combination is imperfect at best, difficult, and full of surprises .. maybe more so than the rest of the technology (wires, sources, etc.),and that's why it gets so much attention.

leok

[@silverfox@]

Looking at the compolents in the system, after getting the speakers,which is in most part the first purchase to be made!

wether influence by others or what amp these speakers were beign played through our choice is preceived on basis that this is the sound we will like, or like to here.

In the most part this is largest single piece of compolent in uor system and therefore not easily subject to change. So other parts are substituted to meet the need,our aim is to put together the most awesome sound system together and as was stated. Amplification,speaker, room were

the three major segments in the picture.

how do I preceive my quartets with a ksw 12 sub a cheap dvd and acurus playing low and compaired to cornwalls using same dvd.yes there is a difference! how much it really matters depends on your expectations. I often read this form and have been influence by some of the views expressed,

there are personalitys that are strong and influencial in their opinions,and persuasive baise on knowledge gained over many years,the substance of which has been borne by others on many occasion. The fact that if we are speaking of elertricity transformed to sound each part of the system is really infuential in the final outcome of the sound beign reproduced.

and in all its aspect since I =e/r

Xl=2pie fl

XC=1/2pie fc

cant get the symbolpie(sorry)

The optimum system brings these factor to as close to unity as possible including room, and above all dont neglect self in this, its all reletive. jmo

[No Disc]

Max,

One idea why "amplification" is a common topic... since this is the "Klispch' forums, and therefore a speaker based forum, it makes sense that amplification would be common topic. Horn based loudspeakers in general match very well to tube amplification.

The power amplifier and loudspeaker should be thought of an interactive combination; the power amplifier will behave differently when driving different loudspeakers. consequently, the loudspeaker should be chosen to the amplifier that will drive it.

The same cannot be said for source components. While any CD player or TT will function in a system (even though it may not be musically ideal), some power amplifiers just won't work well with certain loudspeakers on a technical level.

I firmly believe amplification is a synergy with the loudspeaker. I believe I've read that amplification is supposed to be around 25% of your system budget.

Choose your speaker, then match the amplification to it.

JMHO

tb

[lovemyhorns]

Now I am not saying that you cannot go horribly wrong with amplification

Maybe out of context, but I think you can go horribly wrong with amplification, especially with the very component revealing Heritage line of speakers.

I went from a highly modded Phase Linear preamp and 200 watt McIntosh amp to an Onkyo HT receiver. Even my wife didn't like it! In all honesty, I don't think main line HT receivers can play music decently, although it was adequte for movies.

But now I am back with the Phase Linear preamp and my newly acquired ASL Waves, and they sound better even on DVDs than the HT recevier. People actually sound like people.

Can one go wrong with amplification? Damn straight one can.

This is not to imply that amplification can hide a bad source, bad source cable, generic cables, etc... but amplification is that last active bastion between source and making the air move.

[maxg]

Marksdad,

Rumours of my demise have been greatly exaggerated - GET SOME SLEEP MAN!!

Tbabb,

Good answer

"It all makes perfect Sense, expressed in dollars and cents, pounds shilling and pence"

To borrow a line from a song from the best album ever made - now name that album.....(the original that is - not the more recent re-release)

[No Disc]

Roger Waters - Amused to Death.

- tb

[mobile homeless]

You and your Roger Waters... He is still having nightmares about Syd Barrett. But I love Syd more than Roger for various reasons.

Max, you have been a loon at times but a GOOD loon always. And you most definitely win the award for the best signature of all time. It's beautiful and makes all other signatures seem superfluous.

kh

[maxg]

Thanks MH, correct Tbabb.

Sometimes I wonder if my signature is the only really honest thing I have ever written.

Right now I am waiting for someone to turn up at my house and say "no wonder your CD's dont play well - you are not using this...."

and then I will discover that CD's do indeed play better than vinyl after all and I will migrate back again.

but hell - that's just one of my audio nightmares....

Another one is that my wife's tolerance will finally run out and she will say "its either the system or me."

I'd really miss her of course.

[Randy Bey]

hmmm

I guess my thoughts are that the synergy between amp and speaker are more important than others. Ultimately it's the speaker you listen to and it's relationship to the amp is pivotal.

Once you find a good complementary amp/speaker combo, you will need to have them pried from your cold dead hands.

For example i was at Frank Van Alstines the other day getting my new preamp "refurbed" and he tried to sell me on his new hybrid power amp. A sales pitch never fell on colder ears.

I tried to explain what SET and horns sounded like to him. He didn't seem to understand.

This interchange gave me some pause. How can he make stuff that sounds so good, with such odd opinions? And you should hear the speakers he uses to audition stuff. No wonder he scoffs at SET.

But every time I meet him, he's wearing tye dyes.