Reference Series No Match for Legends

[rgdawsonco]

Can anyone explain why we should be happy that the Legend series has been discontinued and (sort of) replaced by the Reference Series RF-7? I dont get it.

First, I must confess that I think the Legend series, particularly the KLF-20s, are the best speakers in that class ever produced, by Klipsch or anyone. As one reviewer put itOhMyGOD!

I believe the sound of these speakers has something to do with the three-way design and having a tractrix horn mid-range covering 750Hz to 7000Hz. In my opinion, like the Heritage Series, and the old Forte and Chorus speakers, it is the horn midrange that provides the Klipsch Sound. These two-way designs, crossing over to horns at 2200Hz or higher just dont provide the Klipsch Sound (to my ears, anyway).

Next we have the relatively steep price of the RF-7s at $2,200 a pair. Lets be honest, they are basically equivalent to the KLF-10s at about twice the price.

I am very disappointed to see Klipsch abandon a Tractrix three-way design. And the way they have priced the RF-7, a three-way would have to cost $3,000 just to make sense.

Id be interested in hearing what other Legend Series (20s & 30s) owners think

[HornEd]

As a multiple Legend owner, rgdawsonco, what you say makes a lot of sense to me. If it didn't I wouldn't be pushing the envelope with KLF 30's. You have a point in the "you can't beat displacement" issue but the end value is the illusion that occurs between a given set of ears. Obviously, that crucial test is at least a month or so away for most of us.

Sadly, it seems that some manufacturing quality control issues arose in producing the Legend line... and Klipsch research had pushed on to where they believe they can deliver a more precise set of mains for a reasonable price... if larger retailers market them aggressively. About 120 Klipsch home audio designs have fallen by the wayside in the last half century or so... creating a fascinating after-market for every Klipsch owner.

Klipsch horns deliver something akin to "truth-in-audio"... so the more households that embrace the "Klipsch Sound"... the more encouragement there is to have better quality audio that we will likely see from every audio facet. Like many others, I would, and have, bought more expensive Klipsch offerings... but I agree with your notion that great Klipsch speakers at more popular price points tend to make the world a better place... probably for all concerned.

In view of what they have done for us in the past, as consumers, let us give them a chance to put their sound where our money is... with our venerable Legends setting our personal standard of multi-channel excellence at an attractive price point. HornEd

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"30 Something 6.1 Herd"

KLF 30 Mains

KLF 30 Mod Center

KLF 30 Mod Surrounds

KLF 30 Rear Effects

SB-2 Front Effects

Subs: KSW-15 + 3 KSW-12's

Speaker Support Systems:

Mitsubishi RPHD1080i 65"

Yamaha RX-V3000 Receiver

and more...

... UNDER CONSTRUCTION!

[Guest JimG]

I can tell you that after the new model training we did here last week for our sales reps, the RF-7 is more than a match for the Legends. It plays louder, has more and deeper bass, is built WAY better, looks tons better, and sounds like no other speaker we have built. It is just plain scary how revealing these are. You will be amazed at hearing things on CD's you have never heard before. I certainly suggest you demo them...at home if possible...and keep an open mind. Going in prejudiced will do you no good. We demo'd them here side-by-side against Legends and no one thought Legends were better in any way. The driver content and quality of the RF-7 is better than any of the Legend models.

Am I saying that you all will love them and forsake Legends forever? By no means. Legends have their own sound, and speakers being the most subjective of all audio components, many folks may still prefer them over the new stuff and that's fine. However, the difference in sound quality is so large that I bet most will find the new models to be sonic nirvana. I certainly do. I really liked my RF-3's until I got the chance to A-B them against new stuff. Now I hafta get new stuff dangit! Oh well. That's what makes this all fun. Tinkering forever in pursuit of the ultimate sound!

So, it's time to let the arguing commence! Just remember, it's not really fair yet since none of you has heard an RF-7 or RF-5 yet.

Jim

[Guest JimG]

Oh yeah...I should also mention that the drivers in the RF-7 were originally developed for a speaker that was to have a list of $6000/pair. We decided to put them into a cabinet that was much more affordable (Reference) and release the RF-7. So really, you're getting the drivers from a $6000/pr speaker for $2200/pr. We will probably have pictures of the raw drivers up on the site soon so that you can see what we're talking about.

Jim

[Ray Garrison]

Hummm.

Well, here's the specs on the RF-7...

FREQUENCY RESPONSE: 32Hz-20kHz±3dB

SENSITIVITY: 102dB @ 1watt/1meter

POWER HANDLING: 250 watts maximum continuous (1000 watts peak)

NOMINAL IMPEDANCE: 8 ohms

ENCLOSURE TYPE: Bass reflex via dual rear-mounted ports

DRIVE COMPONENTS: Two-way system using one 1.75" (4.45cm) magnetically shielded, titanium dome compression driver tweeter with a 8" (20.32cm) square 90°x60° Tractrix® Horn and two 10" (25.4cm) magnetically shielded, aluminum cone woofers

TWEETER: K-67-DV 1.75" (4.45cm) Titanium dome compression driver

HIGH FREQUENCY HORN: 8" square 90°x60° Tractrix® Horn

HIGH FREQUENCY CROSSOVER: 2200Hz

WOOFER: Two K-1089-AV 10" (25.4cm) Cerametallic® cone / cast aluminum frame

DIMENSIONS: 45" (115cm) x 11.6" (29.7cm) x 16" (41cm)

WEIGHT: 90 lbs. (40.8kg)

ENCLOSURE MATERIAL: Medium density fiberboard construction (MDF)

and here's the specs on the KLF-20's...

FREQUENCY RESPONSE: 34Hz-20kHz±3dB

SENSITIVITY: 100dB @ 1watt/1meter

POWER HANDLING: 200 watts maximum continuous (800 watts peak)

NOMINAL IMPEDANCE: 8 ohms

ENCLOSURE TYPE: Bass reflex via dual rear-mounted ports

DRIVE COMPONENTS: Three-way system using one 1" (2.54cm) polymer diaphragm compression driver tweeter with a 90°x40° Exponential horn, one 1.5" (3.81cm) polymer diaphragm compression driver midrange with a 90°x60° Tractrix® Horn and two 10" (25.4cm) poly CG cone woofers

TWEETER: K-79-K 1" (2.54cm) Polymer diaphragm compression driver

HIGH FREQUENCY HORN: 90°x40° Exponential Horn

HIGH FREQUENCY CROSSOVER: 7000Hz

MIDRANGE: K-52 1.5" (3.81cm) Polymer diaphragm compression driver

MID-FREQUENCY HORN: 90°x60° Tractrix® Horn

MID-FREQUENCY CROSSOVER: 750Hz

WOOFER: Two K-1036-K 10" (25.4cm) Poly Carbon Graphite cones

DIMENSIONS: 40.75" (103.51cm) x 12" (30.48cm) x 16" (40.64cm)

WEIGHT: 86.5 lbs. (39.27kg)

ENCLOSURE MATERIAL: Medium density fiberboard construction (MDF)

Having said that, and noting that specs won't tell you a whole heck of a lot about things sound...

First place, I wouldn't get myself into too much of a snit about this until you've had a chance to HEAR the new speakers. You might think the RF-7's are a cop out and a dumbing-down of the Klipsch brand, or you might think they're tee-riffic. Until you hear them, you're not going to know.

Second place, the idea that a "three way" speaker is somehow inherently more better than a "two way" speaker (or one way, for those Lowther fans amoung us) is just flat wrong. Whether a designer chooses to use one, two, three, four or more drivers to cover the full audible range of frequencies depends upon the nature of the crossovers (shallower slope require drivers to cover broader range, typically necessitating more drivers so each is responsible for fewer octaves, see Thiel's designs, while sharper slope means each driver's range is more sharply defined, thus reducing the out of band performance requirements for each driver), the characteristics of the out of band performance of the chosen drivers, the desired off axis performance, and a bunch of other factors.

The original KlipscHorns were two way designs. The new Jubilee is (from what I've heard, wink wink nudge nudge) a two way design, and you can bet that Paul is NOT gonna let that be anything less than the statement product on his lifetime's work in audio.

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Music is art

Audio is engineering

[Guest BobG]

Ray, could not have said it any better myself. Thanks for reminding us all that it's the sound that counts. All this will be moot when the RF-7 is in the stores to be auditioned. When specs are all you have, then specs it is. When you can hear the speakers, the specs matter less.

I once ran an ad for my store with the headline "come check out the new Brand XYZ speakers...and bring your ears"

My guess is that people will be pretty happy with us when RF-7's can be heard.

[rgdawsonco]

Ray, I was not saying a three-way design is better BECAUSE it is three-way. But rather only the three-way designs happen to provide the so-called "controlled directivity" of a horn down through the mid-range frequencies. I believe this controlled radiation pattern in the mid-range is a key ingredient to the "Klipsch Sound" and the RF-7's won't have it. To me this is like Harley-Davidson building a Honda-like motorcycle. May be a better bike, but its not a Harley and I want a Harley.

I once thought Klipsch understood this sentiment when BobG said Klipsch would always offer a three-way design for those passionate Klipsch-maniacs out there. While it might be easy to say it's only the sound that matters, that is not always the case. Sometimes art is important more because of the artist than the art. Klipsch speakers are important to me for reasons that go beyond just good sound. I can buy good sound from other manufacturers. I want a speaker with a horn-loaded midrange because Klipsch has said/proven this is important for the last 50 years. Why is it not so important all of a sudden? Horn loading was a fundamental Klipsch trade-mark and I'm surprised to see it abndoned to any degree in their premium series.

[JoshT]

Actually, I was a bit surprised to see the cross over at 2200 Hz myself. I thought I read somewhere that the new horn on the RF7 could go higher than the tweeter of the KLF20 and lower than the midrange of the KLF20. If that is true, why not have the cross over at 750HZ or lower? If it were, than I would disagree with rgdawsonco, because I would argue that the new single horn in fact does the job of the KLF20's tweeter and midrange horns. But it looks like it does not, as it is cut off quite high.

That is not to say I am picking sides here, but I wonder a bit what is the point of the horn if it only handles the highest frequencies?

[Ray Garrison]

rgdawsonco,

"...Sometimes art is important more because of the artist than the art..." Well, I can understand that. And yeah, if Harley suddenly decided to do an AMF and re-engineer the twin into some more "modern", more fuel efficient, smoother running, quieter BMW-ish thingie, well, it wouldn't be a Harley anymore. I used to have a Sportster until I decided that I'm one of those people who has no business being on a bike... same reason I quit flying the day my FI threw up in the right seat when I got a little agressive trying to push us into an accelerated stall...

Speaking only to the sound of the RF-7 verses the "classical Klipsches", all I can say is until we hear it, arguing about whether it's true to its heritage is pointless. Fun, put pointless.

Ray

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Music is art

Audio is engineering

[rgdawsonco]

"fun, but pointless" - I admit I am having fun. Now I have to think about just what my point is. I guess it is this. Until now, Klipsch's most important and fundamental speaker design philosophy has been based on the horn. Now it is not. Why? I'm hoping BobG will chime in with an explanation. With the enormous amount of expertise Klipsch has, they can't offer a speaker that uses a tractrix horn for the mid-range frequencies, whether two-way or three-way? What's next, dome tweeters? This amazes me.

[PhilH]

rgdawsonco:

I mentioned your comment about dome tweeters to BobG as he was leaving this morning. His reply was "we have ALWAYS used dome tweeters, we attach a horn to them..." Going to a two-way system is NOT a departure from our design technology in any way...in fact, the very first K-Horns were two-way designs, and Paul's latest design..the Jubilee...is a two way design. If a "one-way" design was feasible, we would be working on that. Klipsch speakers have always been designed to adhere to 4 specific principles...High Efficiency with Low Distortion, Wide Dynamic Range, Controlled Directivity and Flat Frequency Response. Whether the speaker uses 1, 2 or 3 horns to do that does not matter as long as those original criteria are met. We feel that horn loading allows us to meet that criteria in all applications and, therefore, use it in our entire line...from our ProMedia speakers through our Cinema line...it continues to be our trademark.

And I don't want to shock you, but our RF-5 and RF-7 look different from Legends too! Less footprint than we normally have, with really cool finishes (I love the Maple!). It is not an abandoning of a tradition but an extension of it. Again, like several here have indicated, we can debate back and forth all day but without actually LISTENING to them with an open mind (unlike art where we form opinions from observation only), everything is just a guess.

PhilH

[Pete C]

I put my 1972 Cornwall on one channel and one of my RF-3s on the other. The RF-3's horn driver handled everything equal to the Cornwall's two drivers. I don't know how it manages to hit all those frequencies at once, but my ears couldn't notice a difference. (I don't have a frequency generator. I just listened to music I am familiar with.)

The bass was very close until the passage got to be very low-frequency. The RF-3 handles it, but the Cornwall just moves the air a little better. Of course, it is probably just the difference between the front vent on the Cornwall and the RF-3's rear port. I know my RF-3 is not in the best postition on the wall, but it's a WAF thing.

This message has been edited by Pete C on 05-31-2001 at 04:28 PM

[rgdawsonco]

OK, I guess we can close on this issue for now. No more whining from me until I hear the RF-7's. I admit I was trying to provoke a little controversy. But I'll be looking for evidence that the radiation pattern is well controlled in the area of 700-2200 Hz (where there is no horn). I agree if you can do it with a one way, you would. That never was the point. I just want to see how Klipsch does it without a horn.

This message has been edited by rgdawsonco on 05-31-2001 at 05:16 PM

[jdm56]

I just want to get my two (or three) cents worth in here real quick.

Concerning controlled directivity in the RF7 beneath crossover to the horn; I would imagine that those 10" drivers are getting pretty directional well before 2200hz. Also, using two drivers vertically aligned could provide a measure of directivity in the vertical plane, at least at some frequencies, which would be determined by how far apart the acoustic center of the drivers are. So, it is possible that the RF7s could maintain that klipsch hallmark of "controlled directivity" below the crossover to the horn.

...or not.

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JDMcCall

[Mr. Blorry]

Richard Petty once said "There's no substitute for cubic inches." What he meant was that even though Porsche and Ferrari were able to develop easily as much horsepower out of engines less than half the size of the monstrous big block Chrysler Hemis Richard used in his electric blue Plymouth in the sixties, they couldn't begin to produce the wallop known as low-end torque. Around the same time, NASCAR was toying with the idea of having a road course event add to the schedule, and they performed a few comparison tests. While the Porsches and BMWs blew the doors off the heavy battleship size American cars of the day, one interesting difference was noted. In order to complete one circuit in a Porsche, the driver had to make sixteen gear shifts, either up or down. A lap in one of the lumbering American giants required merely four shifts! That was the essence of King Richard's argument.

Here is the essence of mine. No matter how well refined, how can the pair of ten inch woofers in the RF-7 match the "smack" or "slam" that is achieved with my KLF-30's twelves, or better yet, the Heritage series' fifteens? Klipsch appears to be alienating some of its customers by no longer offering a "classic" speaker design at the Legend's price point. To me, the Legends were a poor man's Heritage floor standing speaker. The Heresys are awesome, but they're bookshelf size, and everything else is way above my budget. I would give my eye teeth for a pair of K-Horns, but I will never be able to justify the cost, unless I win the lottery or something. To me, the Heritage and the Legend series were kinda like the good ol' American V-8s that Richard Petty used--powerful, simple, and a lot of fun. We are indeed lucky that Klipsch still makes the K-Horn, Belle, LaScala and Heresywe certainly cant run over to the Chrysler dealer and order up a 70 Hemi Cuda! The Reference series, like a slick Porsche or Beemer is the necessary evolution, and we should never stop advancing the science of speaker or automobile technology, but there are those of us who prefer the warmth and character of the older stuff.

I hope the Klipsch boys read this and take heart. If youre going to take away the Poor Mans Heritage Series, may I suggest at least offering an equivalent replacement! Reintroducing the Cornwall may not be a bad idea.

Theres my rant for the week. Thanks for listening.

[DwK]

Heres my bit.

I am a big fan of Horn loaded speakers.. especialy Klipsch Horn Loaded speakers.

Thats why if I buy Klipsch it has to be a Heritage series, the Reference and Synergy just wont cut it. I need the High and Mid range horns. We have a pair of the Origional Heresys in the living room, and I would take those bad boyz over a pair of RF-3's any day. You may think I am weird.. but I just like the way they sound...

Klipsch is Horns. Horns beat regular speakers.

If Klipsch starts putting out speakers with out the horns... I'd buy Paradigm or B&W if I wanted that.

But I dont, and will buy the older Klipsch products.

Thats all I have to say.

Hope I have made some point, or backed up others.

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K6-2 450

SB Live Value ( not 5.1)

Klipsch Pro Media v2 400 ( soon to be 4.1 )

2 Fisher STV-873's on front channel

2 Fisher surrounds on rear channel

[HornEd]

Well said ardent classic Klipsch aficionados! Sure, I respect anything with a PWK label... but my ears bring me back to the Klipsch classics when it's time to lay my money down. I think those of us who do help preserve the future Klipsch marketplace... folks who hear our rigs tend to remember them all the way to the local dealer... or search the 'net in the case of the 100 odd models that got lost in the marketing shuffle of the last half century.

My hope is that any "New Coke" speaker concept won't leave us without a Hope "Classic" to hang our ears on. HornEd

[PhilH]

Mr Blorry-you won't know if you have good Legend replacements until you listen to the new Reference pieces...BTW I hear Chrysler is bringing back the Hemi for street use!!!

DWK-Horns are our trademark...wouldn't that be like Coors without the "Rocky Mountain spring water"?

HornEd-as we have said until we're blue...Heritage will be back, and back in strong force, as soon as a new driver supplier is found and tested!

PhilH

[jeffgeorge]

Here is my 2 cents. The marketplace will decide if the new RF-7's are Klipsch's future. If they don't sell, perhaps they will go back to the drawing board or, re-introduce the Legends. If they are as good as they say they are... we will be the ones to reap the benefits.

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RF-3's : mains

RC-3 : center

RS-3's : surrounds

KSW-12: subwoofer

Receiver: Denon 2801

DVD: Panasonic DVD-A120

CD: Yamaha CDC-765

Cables: Tributaries

Sat Receiver: Hughes Direct-TV DD5.1

[alex336]

I for one am really excited about the new Klipsch 7's. I have Cornwall I's and love them--will never replace them, but it sounds like these new speakers are really something! Really looking forward to the new experience! Good work Klipsch!

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Johnny