forte Posted October 10, 2003 Share Posted October 10, 2003 I have owned my Fortes for at least 15 years. Over that time I have powered them with an inexpensive Denon integrated amp / stereo receiver. I also have been using a KSW-12 sub to add some low end bass. Recently I replaced the Denon with a B&K PT 5 preamp and Reference 200.2 amp. The Fortes are now going much deeper than ever before. Is this normal? I was under the impression that the power really did not matter much with efficient speakers. Have I been depriving myself for the last 15 years? Also, the KSW-12 sub seems no longer necessary. In fact it almost sounds bad. I assume that there is now a much larger overlap between the bass from the Fortes and the bass from the sub and the bass overload is causing the bad sound. Does this all sound normal? The Fortes go down to 32hz and the Sub to 26hz. Do people normally use a sub for 2 channel music with Heritage speakers? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunnysal Posted October 10, 2003 Share Posted October 10, 2003 my opinion? you got a much better amp/preamp combo and now you are finally hearing what those fortes can do! no subs for 2 channel with my k-horns! but they can sound less forceful in the bottom end with certain amps/preamps. you got a good synergistic match now congrats! tony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leok Posted October 10, 2003 Share Posted October 10, 2003 I doubt it's the power. I think the newer amps have lower distortion at the low power used by the Fortes. leok Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strabo Posted October 10, 2003 Share Posted October 10, 2003 I went through the same thing last year. Had a KSW-150 to fill in the bottem of Forte2's. I think it's the ability of the new amp being able to handle varying impedence loads better than the previous amps. When I went to separates the Forte's were allowed to play their full range making the extra 1hz rating from the ksw-150 useless. On paper the Forte's went lower but in reality they couldn't until they were fed better power. Enjoy your new full frequency speakers. It's amazing what a difference an amp can make. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dougdrake Posted October 10, 2003 Share Posted October 10, 2003 I experienced a similar change when I went from driving my Forte's with a Denon AVR-3300 rated at 105 wpc to an Acurus 200x3 at 200WPC. Was it the power? Was it the cleanliness of the signal? Was it the astronomically high damping factor? Was it the torroidal transformer? Was it the humidity in the air? Who knows. I just know that both my wife and I went "WOW!!" when I hooked up that Acurus. It breathed new life into those Forte's, that's for sure! DD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soundthought Posted October 10, 2003 Share Posted October 10, 2003 Hello, Glad to hear that you've found a rewarding improvement. Doug- I believe it to be a combination of all those things. It is amazing when we find synergy between pieces of gear and the enviroment it's in. Very rewarding. My Fortes' love their mated McIntosh 2100/C28 combo. Before I came to this realization, I wasn't aware of their full potential. Now, they are an inseparable combo. But, I found that my larger Forte IIs and Chorus IIs didn't give as a spectacular performance. Strange.... Granted, it could be a related horn issue. My Quartets really sing with the MC2100, as well. (edit) I just realized my Quartets don't have the same horn type as my Fortes so i'm stumped as to why they sound as good as they do. Maybe it's damping relating? Who knows? As far as augmentation with a sub for 2 channel listening.....it's solely up to your own personal discretion. Personally, it's a multi-faceted issue with me. On one hand you have the issue of various distortions resulting from having a "sub" woofer within a loudspeaker enclosure. Not to mention the engineering challenges one faces when designing a full range speaker for accuracy. Though, on the other hand, when did we ever need a sub up until about 15 years ago? Hmmmm? As i've come to understand it, accuracy has triumped over bass boom. It is a good thing, but not always the most pleasing thing. Well, take that for what it's worth. I am not a professional or audio veteran. I'm just a young man on a quest for a realistic glimpse of audio bliss. Keep on truckin' Regards, John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuckears Posted October 10, 2003 Share Posted October 10, 2003 It's not your imagination: I listened to my Fortes for 10 years with a Carver 120-watt per channel amplifier. I went to a McCormack DNA1 (185 watts per, and much higher quality), and it was like I had never heard these speakers before. Don't let anyone tell you that one or two watts will do it with Klipsch speakers that use cone woofers. The cones love power, and need it to move enough air to give you the slam you're hearing, or rather, feeling. The horns love quality power, not necessarily gobs of it (as the tube lovers will attest to), which is why I think it takes a really good SS amp to make these babies sing... Just my .02, which I'm sure many have heard before, and most do not necessarily agree with... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tillmbil Posted October 11, 2003 Share Posted October 11, 2003 Chuckears is right. Forte's like good clean power to make better bass. My Forte's came alive after adding a Yamaha 250wpc amp on the preouts of my Yamaha RXV-992. Same processor but more cleaner power. Liek buying new speakers IMO. Enjoy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shank2001 Posted October 12, 2003 Share Posted October 12, 2003 I also for the longest time thought that amps made no difference as long as there was enough power to prevent clipping and low distortion levels. Well I blew up my 300 watt Sony TA-N330ES amps that I have had for 10 years(oops). They obviously had plenty of power. But I had to replace them... first I went with a B&K reference 3 channel 225 watts per channel amp. It was a bit better than my old Sonys but nothing my wife could notice. But one of the channels kept cutting in and out so I took the B&K back and bought an Aragon 8008 MK II amp on advice from a trusted friend. HOLY !@$%@%. I have Chorus IIs and the difference was stunning! YES a good amp makes a difference. There is no comparison. HUGE difference... immediately my wife and I had our jaw hit the floor. I have never heard the Chorus IIs sound like this before! I really was STUNNED! And now I feel so bad for what I was missing for 10 years! The punch, the bass, the clarity, it was like a veil had been lifted. Don't listen to anyone that you can get by on a cheap low watt amp or even a cheap high watt amp (not that those Sonys were cheap either!) with Klipsch speakers... it is simply not true, and anyone who goes that route is missing out! I am sold on Aragon amps now, and not just because they are made by Klipsch. Regards, Sean Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxg Posted October 13, 2003 Share Posted October 13, 2003 It is a real effect you are observing and it is not just a question of power. When I first got my Heresy's I ran them with a Rotel power amp using a Yamaha receiver as a pre. It was a pretty horrible sound which I later changed out for an integrated Accuphase E211. Whilst the E211 had only 90 watts compared to the 200 of the Rotel everything sounded much much better until.... I got hold of a pair of KT88 based monoblocks. The bass just bloomed. To put this on a slightly more scientific basis I borrowed a friends test DVD. With the Accuphase the Heresies went down to 63 Hz - no more. With the tubes and a non-descript pre in place they went down to 47 Hz. As the Accuphase was rated at 90 wpc and the tubes, optimistically, at 45 wpc there is much more going on that merely power issues. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forte Posted October 13, 2003 Author Share Posted October 13, 2003 Thank you everyone for all of your input. I have another observation that I would like feedback on from Forte owners if you don't mind. As I have mentioned, with my new power setup the Fortes are putting out much lower frequencies. This is great, but the bass does not sound quite as punchy and tight as it did before. Has anyone else noticed this? I am assuming that this might be because the woofers are now doing "more" and their power is spread out across more frequencies. Or maybe the really low bass is disturbing the slightly higher bass. Maybe these two theories are one and the same. My spikes should be in this week too and I am anxious to see the difference that makes. Has anyone else noticed this? Any ideas? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
itsmyforte Posted October 13, 2003 Share Posted October 13, 2003 i have my forte's on an Acurus A200x3 and the bass is incredible. Actually the whole damn speaker is incredible. It sounds like its twice the size it really is. This setup blows away my RF-7's in my HT setup on a Denon AVR 1803. I preferr my forte's to RF-7 but they do share similarities. one thing is unmistakeable, you can tell both speakers are KLIPSCH. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shank2001 Posted October 13, 2003 Share Posted October 13, 2003 This is a very interesting thread... I have really been curious why the Aragon amp sounds so much better than the Sonys when the THD is not that different, neither is the frequency response, in fact the Sony actally has more power (supposedly, but the Aragons with 200 WPC sound way more dynamic and powerful than the Sonys ever did and go way higher than 200 watts on my power meter). One thing that is very different is that the Aragon has a much higher damping factor, and it "doubles down" with lower ohms. 200 @ 8 and 400 at 4 ohms, and the huge power supply makes the amp have better control over the speaker. It forces the speaker to do what it wants, even at low wattage, it doesn't "see" the speaker resonances or impedence changes and just drives the speaker right. I think it is all about the control the amp has over the speaker. One thing I noticed when I had the Sony's hooked up. I have a power meter that tells me how much power is going to the speakers. When I take off the source to the sony amp but leave the amp on and just play the subwoofer the Chorus II speakers actually act like a microphone and power flows back towards the amp and power meter!! If I really turn up the sub I can get almost half a watt going to the power meter! But with the Aragon amp in the same setup the power meter does not budge at all! It is as if the Aragon amp is resisting the power coming back to it and canceling it. If I feel the woofer of the Chorus IIs during this they vibrate with the sony but not with the Aragon! I think this is the damping factor in play. It just shows that the Aragon has control over the speakers while the Sony doesn't. Any movement the speaker has that the amp did not tell it to do does not get canceled out with the Sony, but it does with the Aragon. Like resonances or when the amp tells the woofer to stop and change direction it does so with no overshoot, etc. The result would be tighter more controlled bass. So perhaps in your case the bass is deeper for whatever reason, but the damping factor is not high enough to really control it and that is why it sounds less tight than before? My experience is the opposite, not only do I have deeper and more powerful bass, but it is much tighter too with the Aragon 8008 MK II. And the difference was not just in the bass region, the higher frequencies are even more stunning than the changes in the bass if you can believe it! Regards, Sean. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnalOg Posted October 13, 2003 Share Posted October 13, 2003 Your results may be two fold. Larger power supply in the amp &/or more gain in the preamp can give you the results you're experiencing. Tom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forte Posted October 19, 2003 Author Share Posted October 19, 2003 I found the problem. I had my amp plugged into a $6 surge supressor. Someone kindly pointed out to me that it was choking my amp. Now the amp is plugged directly into the wall, and the bass is slammin. I recently auditioned a Sunfire Mark IV sub and found that it was not adding enough bass to justify keeping it. The forte bass is amazing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mace Posted October 20, 2003 Share Posted October 20, 2003 Good to hear that you got the problem fixed. As I was reading this thread, I remembered reading that the amount of current (amperes) that an amp delivers is important. The more current, the better. Perhaps that explains the difference between the bass that amps deliver. Mace Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forte Posted October 21, 2003 Author Share Posted October 21, 2003 What I don't understand though is this: 1) My amp is 200WPC. 2) The Fortes are 98db efficient 3) I listen at very low volume (about 70db) I should be totally underutilizing this amp, so why is it so fussy about it power source? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George in Georgia Posted December 1, 2010 Share Posted December 1, 2010 Hmmm... I've been running my Fortes on a Harman Kardon HK 590i receiver with only 45 wpc. I've resisted "upgrading" because of the expense, of course, and also the HK has a feature set which seems unobtainable on current gear. Who now offers tone controls with two different shelving points, a mono switch, and a rumble filter? Not that my AR ES-1 has any rumble, of course! [] How can a surge arrestor, of any cost, "choke off" the AC? Contact corrosion? Skimpy internal wiring? How many amps would your new gear draw? Please, get a good surge arrestor! Your equipment will thank you! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cablebandit Posted December 1, 2010 Share Posted December 1, 2010 I have an Onkyo tx-nr3007 rated at 140wpc...bridged is almost double that. People said it would sound better with a seperate amp. I got an Adcom gfa 555 which is 200wpc. I gave it 3 days as suggested. I just hooked the chorus back up to my Onkyo and WOW. The soundstage is so much wider......the dynamics are better as well.This Onkyo rocks. if I were looking for a new AVR i'd get last years top model, the tx-nr5007 for cheap and be so happy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southern Posted December 1, 2010 Share Posted December 1, 2010 Thank you everyone for all of your input. I have another observation that I would like feedback on from Forte owners if you don't mind. As I have mentioned, with my new power setup the Fortes are putting out much lower frequencies. This is great, but the bass does not sound quite as punchy and tight as it did before. Has anyone else noticed this? I am assuming that this might be because the woofers are now doing "more" and their power is spread out across more frequencies. Or maybe the really low bass is disturbing the slightly higher bass. Maybe these two theories are one and the same. My spikes should be in this week too and I am anxious to see the difference that makes. Has anyone else noticed this? Any ideas? I bi-amped my Forte's with 270 watts from my Pioneer SS reciever powering the woofers and 35 watts from my Dynaco tube amp powering the mids & highs. I have pleanty of punch and pleanty of low end omph as well as silky smooth highs. I spiked my Forte's and noticed that the bass has tightened up a little bit. After you get you spikes in try experimenting with the positioning of your speakers. I have very little toe-in and my speakers are about 13" from the back wall. Good luck and enjoy your Forte's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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