forte Posted October 13, 2003 Share Posted October 13, 2003 After upgrading my system it seems that I can find fault in almost every recording I listen to. Is this normal? For example Pink Floyd Dark Side of the Moon on SACD. This CD totally trumps the PCM recording, and overall it is killer, but I can still pick out numerous distortions. I think that I can even distinguish that the distortions are part of specific tracks (not tracks on a cd, but tracks mixed in a multi track recording). It may be the sound of a symbol or other precussion instrument, sometimes the bass line or sometimes background noise which seems to follow the voice track. Many times these distortions sound as though the sound is falling apart - the beginning and ending points of the wave seem to disentegrate. Is this normal to start hearing these things? Is more likely that my upgraded system is better than most recordings now, or is it simply not keeping up with them? Or could it be my ears are now starting to become more sensitive to sound quality? Where does the fault normally lie? Did something get better or worse? -- Klipsch Fortes B&K PT5 Preamp B&K Reference 200.2 amp Sony C222ES SACD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clipped and Shorn Posted October 13, 2003 Share Posted October 13, 2003 All recordings are flawed. Good ones allow you to create an acceptable illusion in your mind's ear. Bad ones do not because the flaws are too distracting. Same with equipment. C&S Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnalOg Posted October 13, 2003 Share Posted October 13, 2003 Is this normal to start hearing these things? Is more likely that my upgraded system is better than most recordings now, or is it simply not keeping up with them? Or could it be my ears are now starting to become more sensitive to sound quality? Where does the fault normally lie? Be careful with this train of thought you may become an audiophile. Tom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dodger Posted October 13, 2003 Share Posted October 13, 2003 Hello: It depends on era, microphones and Engineer. If you are hearing it on all recordings, it may well be cable or input overload. Also may be driving the amplifier, or pre-amp problems. Try another souce to see if that is it, or be sure you TT cables are hooked to proper inputs - moving (MC) cartridge to moving cartidge. Moving coil catridge hooked into maving magnet (MM) may overdrive inputs. Good Luck Win dodger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Garrison Posted October 13, 2003 Share Posted October 13, 2003 You said that you noticed much better bass after the electronics upgrade, right? Well, more of the same applies here. Your electronics are masking less of the signal than your previous stuff. As such, errors and anomolies that were buried in the noise floor before, or masked by other distortions created by the electronics, were not noticeable. Now that you've got better stuff, you are hearing more of what's one the recordings. Yes, you will hear more flaws. But you will also hear more, uh, of the good stuff (???). That is, good recordings will sound better than they did before. Hopefully. When you listen to DSOTM, rather than allowing the errors to become distractions, see if you can hear more of Waters, Wright and Gilmour in there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnA Posted October 13, 2003 Share Posted October 13, 2003 I'm sorry Forte, but ..... DUH! Fortes are notable for their low distortion levels and B&K for its resolution. You should try some K-horns with that gear! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strabo Posted October 13, 2003 Share Posted October 13, 2003 I'm curious. Are you hearing the distortions on the SACD or the MOFI? Is the Mofi the UD1 or UD2 or LP? Lets do a little experiment. Tell us where you are hearing the distortions and we should all take a listen to see what we all hear. (edited to add content) I think Dodger is onto something. To quote the warning label on a Gale LP, "The dynamic range of this record exceeds the capabilities of many pickup cartridges. Occasional harsh sound is indicative of cartridge mistracking. Lack of dynamics, restricted frequency response and severe distortion on loud passages is indicative of an inadequate amplifier or speaker system." There may be some other problem, or you may be right, there might distortion on DSOTM. Let us know where you're hearing it so we can all check it out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audio Flynn Posted October 13, 2003 Share Posted October 13, 2003 Mapleshade produced CDs and classical with only 2 mikes are most likely some of the least flawed recordings. Some early majorly overdubbed rock recordings are barely tolerable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WMcD Posted October 13, 2003 Share Posted October 13, 2003 I've run into recordings which have anomalies. Court and Spark on CD at least breaks up on one loud, complex vocal. It shows up on any system I've used. I had a DG CD of a classical recording where a creshendo (sp) would have been magnificent. But there is something wrong. I believe there were two takes and they spliced them at the cresendo with the hope it would not be detected. The splice may have been a 100 uS off, the folks were playing a bit different. In making any analysis, you should be a bit mindful of what can be traced to the recording and what is the effect of better equipment, versus bad equipment. In my view, with non horn speakers, things can sound fairly good and a bit homoginized. All recording are fairly even on a medioce system. For example, we never hear flaws on a table radio or a run of the mill automobile system. This is the homogination by distortion. When you get to horns and maybe the proper electronic system, you find great inconsistencies in recordings. These go the whole range. Some nominally "poor" recordings sound good. We see the latter when folks buy horns and reinvestigate their record collection (CD, vinyl, or even 78 rpm shellac). Lack of speaker distortion allows us to hear more. For example. I hear different balance in Doors tracks on the same CD. Oldies from the 50s sound better. You can pick out more in the midrange. This was masked by poor speakers. Old movies on TCM suddenly have a bass line to the orchestra. The original recording has some grung and lacks frequency response. None the less, the same problems in lesser systems just gang up on it. Generally, it is my belief that if you are hearing flaws and they always occur at the same point in the recording, you just have aquired a better system. You may have found that too. It is like getting a new eye glass prescription. (I'm at that age.) When you start seeing hightened details with the new ones, no one suggests the new glasses are bad and that the optometrist did a bad job. Rather, it was a lack of resolution before. Pressing on this analogy, if you begin to see wrinkled faces, fingerprints on the refrigerator, and that there is a spot on a tie . . . what do you think? There is an argument that the new system cleaned up most flaws in the reproductive chain and that the anomalies detected in the recordings are actually the effect of an unusual "challenge" to the new system which was heretofore unrecognized. If this is correct, you should try other speakers, amps, or headphones to make a close investigation. Hopefully without spending too much money. Maybe listen on a buddy's system. However, I believe you will become convinced that it IS the recording. And yes, I have to clean up the fingerprints on the refrigerator. Going back to the optometrist is not going to make them go away. Best, Gil PS. Go Cubs. If the Marlins can blow three games in a row, so can the Cubs. They have so much more practice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
formica Posted October 14, 2003 Share Posted October 14, 2003 ---------------- On 10/13/2003 8:42:03 AM forte wrote: Do most recordings contain flaws? ---------------- Yes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
formica Posted October 14, 2003 Share Posted October 14, 2003 Actually I find some flaws blend in well (add) to the music. We've seen many trip-hop bands purposely use a vinyl sounding "snap-pop" in their recordings. A step further, if you listen carefully, you can also pick up most of the sampling loops and edits... things which, to me, add to the flavour of the music. On the other hand, bad mixes, thd, clipping, im, etc... unfortunately are simply annoying. Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soundog Posted October 14, 2003 Share Posted October 14, 2003 Nothing is absolutly perfect - everything contains flaws to one degree or another. Recordings such as the new multichannel SACD of Pink Floyd's Dark Side of the Moon and the recent Remastered Dylan recordings on SACD (I have Blonde on Blonde) show what can be done to improve recordings. (Note: It would be interesting to compare the 2 channel SACD versions of both recordings with the multichannel - think I'll do that). Likewise equiptment such as the Sony 222ES can be upgraded (modified - see www.sacdmods.com) to improve sound quality. I have the modified Sony 775 which has much the same inerts as the 222 in a lighter weight package. I also have the new Sony CX985V 400 disk DVD/SACD player which is really impressing me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnA Posted October 14, 2003 Share Posted October 14, 2003 My favorite "flaw" is a loud POP between tracks in the Sheffield Lab Direct-to-Disc "I've Got the Music in Me". Before La Scalas, it was a pop. Now, it is clearly a reverb toggle switch on a guitar amp. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dodger Posted October 14, 2003 Share Posted October 14, 2003 Hello: For clarification: Distortion heard on a CD is a good number of times different Than what you hear on an LP. The frequency responses are different as is the dynamic range. In recording, some piece of equipment or the Engineer is pushed to the limit - that goes for rock, jazz, classical etc. Classical a little less so, but in a two (2), three (3) or four (4) microphone system you can push the microphones and the recording board to limits in the quiet and loudest passages. Then adding either a compressor or compandor, you borderline some portions of distorion. With rock and jazz, positioning of microphones, trying to keep track of a 64 or 72 track board is in itself, difficult. No matter what you hit the settings for, usually one of the musicians gets hot and their volume goes up. Keep in mind the db level certain microphones can handle, or that the board or recorder can handle. Then if all tracks are put down together, the Engineer keeping track of 64 or 72 SEPARATE channels. Rock in itself can push the limits of microphone, board or recorder. the levels can be quite loud - if you're using a tubed microphone and the tube starts its slow death progression, the ability for a clear recording starts changing. Hendrix left quite a few of his or the band's mistakes in. Quite a few don't and if a few sour notes are hit and the musician does not want to record the entire track over, the "cough" or mute button is hit and released for sometimes only a few notes. During those few notes there can be different tone, volume or even Engineer or studio, leaving equipment notwithstanding. Then we have the final mix, as noted above you will hear the clicks of pickup choice for guitar, sometimes a partial use of a pick playing the bass guitar and thumb or two finger use for the rest. The result is hearing some flaw and in recording frm a vinyl to CD, a number of times you have a different Engineer who has their own idea of how the mix should sound. Or even George Martin overseeing the re-mastering of the Beatles Albums. On some you wonder if he was there for either the original or the CD mix when you note guitar licks that were in front now dropped back, the same for vocals. So are there flaws in recording? yes, the chain can be too long. Should there be? No the equipment can be sophisticated enough too avoid them. Is the click of a reverb switch or the noise of a breaking string on a violin when that string is not used a flaw? It's up to the listener Recording whether live or Studio is a long chain. Some corrections to live are done in the studio, or enhancements. It's a mystical world to bring all together. Sometimes it happens flawlessly, sometimes the board gremlins want to play. Win dodger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forte Posted October 19, 2003 Author Share Posted October 19, 2003 Thanks everyone for your opinions. If I can nail down a specific "for instance" I will post it here, so we can discuss something specific. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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