TT trouble

[tillmbil]

Having TT trouble. Craig if you are out there can you PM me with a phone number.

Here goes. I set up my MMF-7 last night and after following all the directions the needle still did not seem to have enough weight to it. Then when I put the anti tracking weight on it made the needle skip. To excited to wait, I took the weight off, gave the needle just a tad more weight and listnend to about 5 songs. Left for dinner and when I got back to listen ther was all this static. I cannot seem to get it to go away.

Question? Can you kill a brand new neddle by setting the weight too heavy with only a few songs played?

DO you have to use the anti tracking weight. Every time I put it on the needle doesn't touch the record enough. I have adjusted the the arm weight by about 6 grams and the sound comes back but I still hear all this static.

[LarryC]

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On 10/25/2003 8:33:25 AM tillmbil wrote:

Having TT trouble. Craig if you are out there can you PM me with a phone number.

Here goes. I set up my MMF-7 last night and after following all the directions the needle still did not seem to have enough weight to it. Then when I put the anti tracking weight on it made the needle skip. To excited to wait, I took the weight off, gave the needle just a tad more weight and listnend to about 5 songs. Left for dinner and when I got back to listen ther was all this static. I cannot seem to get it to go away.

Question? Can you kill a brand new neddle by setting the weight too heavy with only a few songs played?

DO you have to use the anti tracking weight. Every time I put it on the needle doesn't touch the record enough. I have adjusted the the arm weight by about 6 grams and the sound comes back but I still hear all this static.

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I hope you didn't knock the stylus tip off the cartridge cantilever. I did that once with a new cart, was lucky when the cartridge manufacturer or distributor replaced it without charging for "retipping." I assume you meant anti-skating, which is generally innocuous in my rather limited experience. How did you measure the stylus pressure? Shure gauge? Now, you may have way too much if it's at 6 grams. Can you go back to square one by setting the specified stylus pressure (if you can measure it)?

[garymd]

Bill,

Larry is probably right. He has lots of experience with TTs and has owned many different cartridges as I have discovered. Actually, I'm hoping he helps me set up my Garrott in a couple weeks. Hint, hint.

Have you called the store? Since you bought an open box model, they will probably replace the stylus if you tell them what happened. Also ask them how to set it up properly. TTs are very sensitive creatures. It doesn't take much to screw something up.

The only issue is that since it's a MMF, I don't know how the carts are set-up. I know it's different than some. I think you'll have luck with them when you call but DON'T play any more lps with it. You could do some serious damage to your vinyl.

Good luck.

[LarryC]

Gary wrote:

Actually, I'm hoping he helps me set up my Garrott in a couple weeks. Hint, hint.

Sure! I'd like to see and hear a Garrott. NeedleDoc liked them, and they seem to be familiar with quite a few brands.

[tillmbil]

I do not have a way to measure the pressure, so I have ordered the Shure pressure gauge. When you say "onocuous",should have payed attention to how you spelled that", do you mean not necessary? I hope thats waht you meant because it draws the needle off the record, and I definitely have ti set up according to the directions.

I did not at any time knock the stylus into anything. I adjusted the weight and it played a few songs fine, but when trying later it became staticky. Like the had dust on it. If I adjust the weight until it plays more normal it still has some static to it still. Is that what a needle going bad sounds like?

In all of these the anti tracking weight has not been attached.

How do I look at a needle to see if something is wrong?

[LarryC]

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On 10/26/2003 7:55:04 AM tillmbil wrote:

I do not have a way to measure the pressure, so I have ordered the Shure pressure gauge. When you say "onocuous",should have payed attention to how you spelled that", do you mean not necessary? I hope thats waht you meant because it draws the needle off the record, and I definitely have ti set up according to the directions.

I did not at any time knock the stylus into anything. I adjusted the weight and it played a few songs fine, but when trying later it became staticky. Like the had dust on it. If I adjust the weight until it plays more normal it still has some static to it still. Is that what a needle going bad sounds like?

In all of these the anti tracking weight has not been attached.

How do I look at a needle to see if something is wrong?

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Bill,

I'm glad a Shure gauge is on the way. While nearly all tonearms have anti-skating doo-dads, manufacturers don't seem to think it's very critical, and frankly I can't tell a lot of difference under many circumstances. It's to neutralize the tendency of a tonearm to "skate" inward (because of the sideward bend in the arm just before the headshell) by a gentle outward force. Because it is gentle, as well as impossible to come up with an exact anti-skating force for every record, you don't see a lot of emphasis on getting it "exact." However, it should be applied.

It is CRITICAL to level your turntable!! A tilt to the right or the left will apply a lot more sideways force to the needle than antiskating ever will. You should probably get a short (6") level if you don't have one, to use on the TT plate. Possibly that is/was part of your problem. Which way was your tonearm skating, to the center or the edge?

It is not good to apply more weight to try to get it to play. How do you set your weight now? I don't think you can guess at it by feel.

I don't have a good guess as to why it would play well for a while and then become staticky (sp?) and skate away. Do you see dust piling up? Can you still see that very small point in the groove if you look closely from the side, or is it obscured by a dust ball? Things I know that can go wrong are a missing or deformed diamond tip (it takes a microscope to see deforming) or a bent cantilever, which you can often see by turning the cartridge over and looking straight down at it -- is it a straight line, and centered?

I feel a cartridge is bad if it has a very exaggerated, peaky treble or midrange, or exaggerates record scratch or even chatters in the groove. That sounds like what you were describing. I usually feel it's really wearing the record at that point.

At some point, you may need to take it back and hope that it will be replaced without fuss. If it never sounded or worked right from the start, you should emphasize that.

[Strabo]

Did you get the table with the Goldring cart?

I played around with a friends MMF7 w/stock Goldring and we found that the cart needed a bit more weight than the set-up directions state. But we only changed it by .2-.4 grams. 6 grams is huge.

I think the anti-skate is important as long as it's set up right. If set up wrong it might be better not to use it at all. I ended up rigging a second anti-skate with 1lb test fising line and a couple of sinkers because the original weight was too heavy for my cart. I did keep the original weight for playing 45's though. You need more anti-skate when using the faster plater speed.

That said, you shouldn't harm anything by not using the weight while you get everything else set.

Back to your problem. Before playing anything else I'd check all the nuts and bolts to make sure they aren't lose. Check the headshell. Check the VTA locking screws located on the back side at the base of the arm (that's what that short allen wrench is for). Lastly, check the azmyth adjustment set screw which is hidden under the pin for the anti-skate (unscrew the pin, lift the arm and the set screw will appear. It's hidden on the top of the arm inside the bearings.)

If nothing was lose I'd ask the dealer if he can examine it before playing anything else.

[dodger]

Hello:

First, check Larry's post/.

Second, if you put the tracking weight to what is believed to be six (6) grams and is actually more, you may have bent the cantilever up into the cartridge body.

Anti-skating is a good thing as the tracking to the inner groove will put undue pressure, thus undue wear to the inside groove.

Is the static sound just on records you have already played or is there a new "throw away" you can use to check.

If you have a magnifying glass and a steady hand, lock the arm in place take a flashlight and the magnifying glass and examine the stylus. It should be clean, not tilted or bent.

Also make sure the stylus body is fully inserted into the cartridge body. Also make sure you are not over compensating on the anti-skating.

If you have damaged the stylus, it is usually almost as costly to replace just that stylus. The Ortofon OM 20, OM 30 or LM 40 are less costly. The difference in cost vs sonic improvement may not be worth it on the table you have, or overall.

One thing to keep in mind in cost vs sonic improvement, a lot of sellers don't worry about that, but buyers should.

Unless you have more money than the ability to hear a difference. Or don't care.

Win dodger

[artto]

This is a re-post since the search feature still sucks.

TURNTABLE SETUP

Turntable Setup: As in acoustics, mass absorbs sound. But mass also can transmit sound equally well. So you need something large & heavy to support the table, but it also must be decoupled from the mass. At one point I had my turntable racks weighted down with solid concrete blocks of several different sizes/weights, each floated (decoupled) on closed cell foam, with total weight of aprox. 300 LBS. The shelf that the TT is on is lightweight & not securely coupled to the TT rack (Linn Sondek recommendations).

Make sure the TT is level. Make sure the TT platter & the pickup arm board are level. I use a lightweight 6 long level centered on the platter. Turn the platter slowly in all directions to make sure its level.

The pickup arm cable should not be allowed to dangle loose. It should be secured to the TT decks sub-chassis, but leave enough room for some movement so it is free to move with the suspension. All electrical components, cables & connections, arm mounting board, etc., must be free to move and not allowed to foul the cabinet.

You need to make sure the arm/pickup are aligned properly to minimize tracking error. There are 2 schools of thought on this. The one-point alignment & the two point alignment. I think most here would agree that 2 point is the way to go so that tracking error is minimized at two points as the arm/pickup cross the record. Ideally, you should have a protractor alignment tool from the pickup arm manufacturer, but you can buy a good one for a few bucks.

Make sure the pickup is securely & tightly attached to the pickup arm. Use screws of appropriate length to minimize mass AND Do Not use spacers between the pickup & the pickup arm shell as this will increase warp-wow effect. It is essential that the pickup be acoustically bonded to the pickup arm shell. The use of screws will not always provide this. This is particularly important with pickups of relatively low compliance. The pickup should be first securely positioned with a seating compound using a very firm finger pressure. When the correct position is achieved the fixing screws are added & will keep it in place without over-tightening. Excess seating compound can be removed with a toothpick or straight pin.

The effect of adding mass to a pickup arm changes as the square of the distance between the center of gravity of the mass and the arm pivot. This means that adding 1 gram at a 9 inch radius changes the effective mass of the arm by the same amount as adding 81 grams at a one inch radius! To minimize this you might want to seek out some lightweight screws/nuts made out of something like glass reinforced nylon. This can often effect a weight saving of as much as 1.5 grams over equivalent metal screws.

If your pickup has a metalized molded shell you may need to take precautions to avoid a ground loop within the shell. It may be necessary to insulate the pickup body from the pickup arm shell. There are a number of ways to do this depending on the pickup. Sometimes it may require you to lift a tab from one or the other channels ground on the pickup. Consult the pickup manufacturer.

The pickup arm mounting. There are two schools of thought on this. Some say the pickup arm must be securely tightened with physical contact to the mounting board. Others say to use some form of isolation such as grommets between the pickup arm mounting holes & the TT mounting board. It probably depends on the arm/pickup/TT combo. Youll have to try for yourself.

Generally speaking, the pickup arm headshell & the top of the pickup should be level with the record surface. There are variations on this so make sure you consult the manufacturers recommendations. Dont forget to make sure pickup azimuth is correct by placing a small mirror on the TT platter, & resting the pickup stylus on it. The pickups reflection in the mirror should show no side to side tilting & should appear level.

Some pickup arms need to be balanced laterally (not just longitudinally). Again, check the manufacturers recommendations or find someone familiar with the product.

Then of course there is vertical tracking angle. Some pickup arms accommodate this easily, others dont. Not all records are cut at the same vertical angle. Some arms allow you to dial-in the angle even while playing. Others you must fiddle with trial & error.

Longitudinally balance the arm to be level at zero weight. Set the tracking force weight as recommended by the pickup manufacturer (lightest is not necessarily best). As has been previously suggested, use a tracking force gauge to measure stylus pressure such as the one made by Shure. Adjust the anti-skating force. You can do this by playing a test tone record & moving the anti-skating weight or adjustment until the meters (on your tape deck for instance) show both channels in balance. Try this at the beginning, end & middle of records if you can. If you have a smooth disc such as an uncut record, you can simply put the stylus on the turning record & see it skate. Adjust the anti-skating so no skating exists. Anti-skating will affect the channel balance, & therefore sound stage/imaging. And it can produce uneven wear on both the stylus tip & the record groove walls resulting in further damage & increased noise.

DO NOT USE Isopropyl Alcohol on your vinyl !!!!!!!!!!!!

It is not distilled very well and contains a number of contaminants including oil based lubricants which is why its used as rubbing alcohol. Use a high quality triple-distilled clear liquor like Smirnoff Silver.

I use Stylast cleaner & lubricant on the stylus. I prefer GrooveGlide to Last Preservative on clean discs (lightly! one second on the pads, not the record, is plenty. Buff in both directions, including the label area). Subsequent plays will require only a wipe or slight re-buffing with the GrooveGlide pads. Many of my discs that were treated 20+ years ago are still virtually tick & pop free. I mark LP cover on the inside with a small dot label available from Avery Labels so I know that the disc has already been treated. The small labels are easily removed without damage.

[Audio Flynn]

AARTO knows his stuff!

I recommend you do not "play" with a TT until you have a nice level and stylus force gage.

DO not rush the leveling; Mine took about 45 minutes to get it just right.

[tillmbil]

Thanks all, I have decided to do nothing until the shure pressure gauge shows up. I will check again after I have the correct pressure. It should a arrive early this week.

I will repost soon.