Klipsch Reference RF-7 Speakers

[neo33]

Yesterday I went to the local Good Guys store to audition some Klipsch reference floorstanders and I was offered $1,800 for a brand new pair of RF-7 (retails at $2,200). I know that I can buy them online for cheaper; however, because of the sheer size and weight, I don't want to deal with the hassle of having to ship them back and forth if there is any problem (or if I don't like them). Beside, I want to buy them from an authorized Klipsch dealer. What I want to know is if this is a good buy. Also, will they extend low enough for classical music or do I need a subwoofer?

Since I am using low-power SET amps to run them, to increase the output power I am thinking of biamping them. I know I don't listen to music at extreme volume, but just in case I need the extra headroom. Is this a good idea and how will this affect their sound quality?

Any input would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

[Fish]

If you can get one year no intrest/no payment that would be ok.If you are paying cash $1600.00,just my opinion.

[purdue2k2]

I paid $1500 for a pair of RF-7's from Ovation Audio (a small chain located in Indiana and Kentucky). They were offering a promotion of buy one speaker, get the second one 50% off. That's the best deal I've seen from any authorized dealer.

[leok]

For a while you might consider using only a single amp. Using 2 amps presents a very odd load to the top end of the woofer amp and the low end of the horn amp. I "dual-amped" for a year or so then stopped because sound with a single amp (tube or pwm) was more cohesive .. better imaging and depth, and more consistent instrument timbres.

Basic ss amps might not care as much about the missing portions of the load, but usually their sound is harsh at low powers used by Klipsch speakers.

The RF-7 will take a couple of months to break in .. give it time. It's a very enjoyable design and good implementation.

leo

[mobile homeless]

I generally agree with Leok here as well on the prospect of using multiple amps although I havent done this recently. A lot of people are proponents but I have found the sound not the last in cohessiveness as well. For the most part, I really feel it is unnecessary and an added complication although it does remove some of the load off of the SET solution. On the other hand, I have ultimately preferred the sound of single amp systems, even given the strengths in other areas, this for all the reasons mentioned above.

On the speaker front, seems you have gotten some price comments that make sense. Leo's comments on the break-in time for new speakers is right on as well, although some here dont agree on the break-in principle. I personally feel all gear benefits, though some types and examples more than others.

On the speaker selecton issue, it appears as of the RF-7 can be made to be more neutral in the top end as Leo has done some mods here. The Reference series on the whole does tend to be geared more toward the latest Home Theater balance in the top end. A resistor mod can help.

What speakers have you considered or auditioned besides the RF-7? Also, what amps were connected to the RF-7 you did audition?

kh

[Deang]

Since so much of the midrange is carried by the cones, I wonder if biamping might not work better using identical amps on top and bottom. If the bottom amp is wired to the four ohm taps, and the top amp is wired to the eight ohm taps -- this would put each very close to the nominal impedance of the drivers. A rather expensive solution however, and it really makes much more sense to jump up to the 845, or just go push-pull.

With everything you've said so far, and if you're being honest about your listening habits, I think I would personally opt for a set of Welborne 300B DRDs. 7-8 watts should be plenty for you. If you have doubts about this, then you should just pass go and head for the SE 845, or DHT push-pull around 20 watts.

Truth be told, the RF-7's will sound great no matter what you decide on. I've run mine with just about everything over the last two years, and I was never really disappointed. I think those like Kelly and Leo are right however, horns seem to sound much smoother and open as you drop the wattage. Craig and myself believe it has as much to do with getting the tube into it's sweet spot as anything else. Craig is down to 35 watts, and I'm down to 20. Of course, we are both in nearfield listening environments, and our rooms are anything but large. We both feel we are at the minimum for Rock music. The bigger the room, the more power you need.

I don't agree that the RF-7 is too hot in the treble. However, it does sound better tweaked. I dropped the resistor value in question down to 1.66 like Leo a while back, and I definitely sensed some "dulling". It just seemed like the lively nature of the RF-7 was throttled back too much. I'm currently using an Ohmite 1.82 ohm. Leo doesn't use a preamp, and I'm sure this to a large degree accounts for some major differences in our perception.

[leok]

Dean,

Consider what's happening to the speaker impedance, seen by an amp, as the crossover section (high pass for horn and low pass for cones, begins to drop the speaker from the signal (by adding series impedance). Also, what is the impact to an amp in the frequency region where there is no load at all?

At 2.2KHz, for instance, half of the amp load is presented by each section. With 2 amps, each amp sees half the impedance which will cause some amps, esp tube amps, to slightly increase output, resulting in a freq. response bump at the crossover region. Over-simplification maybe, but probably part of the reason for coherence loss that I noticed. Remember, I'm talking solo violin and harpsichord, or string quartet.

leo

[neo33]

"The Reference series on the whole does tend to be geared more toward the latest Home Theater balance in the top end"

Does that mean they are not suitable for music listening? How well do they handle a full orchestra ensemble?

I will do more auditioning with some of my reference material before I decide on any purchase.

[Deang]

If you audition them in a showroom tied to a HT receiver, the highs will seem a little hot. However, this doesn't mean they are not suited for music. Driven by a tube amp, they are a marvelous sounding speaker, and I have yet to hear anything I prefer over them.

Klipsch designs their speakers to deliver relatively flat response. There is a small resonance peak with the horn which is controlled by a notch filter in the crossover -- and it does a good job. If you buy them and decide you'd like the HF response brought down just a tad, you can send me the terminal cups (where the crossovers are attached) and I will be glad to make the adjustment for you at no cost. However, you will probably find that after break-in -- things will sound rather good!

mh has heard the RF-5, but has not heard the RF-7.

[neo33]

Thanks, Dean. I am about to pick up a pair from a local dealer (non-Good Guys) for about $1,500. Gonna bring my favs Beethoven to enjoy.

[BigBusa]

wow thats a big difference! From $1800 to $1500 ...how'd you get that deal? Did you go back and forth betweeen dealers?

[mobile homeless]

WARNING! TOO LONG A POST - Started this post at 10am - stopped all day

--- Listened to music ----

then just finished it... It is out of place considering. IT was going after DeanG's post on amps

I tend to favor a good tube active gain stage over the passive preamp option although people are now hawking the transformer-passive approach, which does seem to make some sense. There is a good explanation of how this functions in the DIY-HIFI site. Interestingly, I use a passive preamp with my very sensitive EL-34 amp but prefer the active tube stage of my Cary with the Moondogs, although the passive DOES work well there. I just like the fleshed out midrange and lower mids with the good active stage (in my view, the octals like the 6SN7/6SL7 are VERY good with this as well as a more open sound than some of the minipin offerings, this in general).

The archives here are FILLED with discussion about SET preferences, the reasons, the variables, the pros and cons, and the discussion of amp build vs sonics etc. Ultimately, a lot of it comes down to the critical aspect of system matching as well as listening taste and room size. No doubt that single-ended triode amplifiers provide a unique window to the sound. They also provide their fair share of headaches and woe. Cable that worked great with my solid state amps, sounded bad via my SET. In fact, 18g solid core Radio Shack wire sounded better on my Moondogs than my Transparent cable (16 cents worht of cable vs $800). You have to keep an open mind and be willing to plow on through obsticles. I found getting my SET system to sound at its best the hardest thing I have done in audio, far more challenging than the various higher power amps I have owned (and it's been quite a few). Some of the things I had been doing didnt always work when the SETs were tossed into the picture. Enter high efficiency horns and another round of variables come in, but it wasnt until I got sensitive speakers combined with teh all important benign impedance that things REALLY started to sing.

I have heard GREAT 300B amps. I like both the 2A3 and 300B, either over the various higher power SET's I have heard which, though good, didnt have some of the see-through and life-like quality of the lower watt options. Ultimately, I have found myself siding with the 2A3 over the 300B as I actually think it has better defined bass and a clearer midrange. The 300B CAN sound VERY good though. A lot really does depend on the circuit and implementation (and system).

That Sun SV-2A3 is actually still at $860 which is pretty low. Still, I expect it to head over $1000. But keep an eye on it. It has a hand-full of hours left. For some reason, I still wonder about this amp as it never lit my fire. But if going for around 1k, you could buy, TRY, and sell it making a few ducats perhaps. You would need 2A3, but Sovtek are only $50 a pair.

List of some SET amps to consider, USED (new denoted)

- Welborne Labs DRD 2A3/300B Monoblocks (New BEST Deal)

- Welborne Labs 2A3 Moondog Monoblocks (Used but rare)

- Wright Sound 3.5 Monoblocks (Used Cheapest Monos - sell in a day)

- Sun Audio SV-2A3 (Used)

- Sun Audio 6V6 SET (Used)

- Consonance Billy 300B Monos (used)

- Early Cary Audio 300se Monos w/Power Bank (used)

- Fi X 2A3 with upgraded Output(Used)

- Welborne Laurel IIx (used)

- Bottlehead 2A3 Paraglow with C4S (used)

- Bottlehead 300B Parabee w/C4S (used)

- Wavelength Duetto 300B (Used)

- Audio Note Model 1 (used)

Lastly, I want to add a few comments here. I have been without my Moondog 2A3 Monoblocks for almost four months. I finally got these things back up and running last night. In that time, I had a Tripath Digital amp made by Leok, a modified EL-34 UL with heavy duty iron/RCA Cleartop Side getter 12AU7A/Svetlana EL-34, and the EICO HF-81. Of course, everyone here knows my love for the little EICO; Leo's digital amp was a great surprise and I enjoyed it. But I really actually DUG my time with my old EL-34 PP amp and have had that playing every day. It is biased heavy into Class A (50mv) and has been FUN as hell with vinyl. In fact, I was having such a good time with this amp (it's a looker too) that I put off fixing the Moondogs. Hell, I could live with this thing!

WEll, I put the Moondogs back in last night late. MAn.... IS it THAT easy to forget? I had some NOS rectifiers I scored off an Ebay auction of a different type that I was trying. FLAT OUT, with the Progressive-Engineering "The Turntable" into my Cary, Moondogs, and Cornwalls, it was the BEST BASS and overall definition from top to bottom I have had in my system. The difference in the space between the instruments, as if each was a definable piece was SO far ahead of the other amps, it almost wasnt in the same ball park. First, these rectifiers sounded a bit fuzzy and soft at first, but HUUUUUGGGGGGEEEE. Christ, the sound was huge. After about two hours, the whole presentation sounded so dynamic and alive. It was amazing. But what I had forgotten was the slam and bass and open quality of the whole presentation. AGain, this was the best quality bass in my house, including all amps. It was DEEP and dynamic. The EL-34 PP had a LOT of low end guts but wasnt as defined and tonally pure as this. And I have been futzing with my PE Turntable with the tonearm and cartridge setting. This hit right on and the bass from this table is just top notch. Its better than my Linn LP-12 now in that area. I dont think I have ever had the Progressive-Engineering table dialed in to this degree. But the Moondogs have never sounded better. And this new rectifier is amazing. I told Jeff I was doubtful at first, but LORD.

I had almost forgotten what it was like. Yeah, my room is SMALL, but damn if this combo is kicking out the jams! I am listening to AGITPOP, right now.

kh

[leok]

Kelly,

What are the rectifiers?

Glad you have the Moondogs back. Without mine i'd have no string quartets.

leok

[Deang]

That's great Kelly, it's good to know you got The Doggies going again, they've brought you a lot of joy.

Last I looked, there was still a set of Moondogs out on Audiogon -- kind of pricey though. Still, I've certainly never had a problem plopping down a little extra for asthetics alone -- they are very nice looking amps. Someday I will hear the 2A3.

[mobile homeless]

Those Moondogs sold a little over a week ago. As they had the Ultimate Upgrade with Black Gate WKZ caps, Mullard GZ-37, Caddock resistors, Jensen Copper Oils, etc... they were a good deal. They went for less than the asking price.

I realize I can really enjoy a wide range of amps, the only thing needed is they have to be quality representatives of their topology. A well designed and built amp with good output iron and power supply will sound good with its own set of strengths and weaknesses. The good part is that ones aural memory gets hazy and you can enjoy a variety of amps for what they do. I really did enjoy the time with my old higher power Class A biased EL-34 amp (fixd-adjustable bias). When the DHT single-ended triode Moondogs re-entered the picture, up comes that larger, life-size, more open sound with more space between the instruments and more defined instrumental outlines. But I was really surprized with the bass as I had even begun to think the PP EL-34 amp of mine had the big bass. Well, it has a definite lower range drive but the Moondogs have more defined and potent bass with more definition and slam, just not as much total drive in the lower mids. The DHT 2A3 seems to be much clearer and open than the EL-34.

But the nice thing is that I could have played that EL-34 amp for another few months and been very happy. I was enjoying the music all the same and playing music as much as ever. I was modifying it and getting it going to sell but might keep it as my sample of that style amp. There is something special about a big EL-34 amp. Still, I moved it back to the bedroom shelf where it sits as chrome sculpture.

Leo, I owe you a mail anyway...

kh

ps- Another nice thing is I finally got my Progressive Engineering table dialed in better than it ever has. The bass is now EXTREMELY good and more powerful with weight and definition that outdoes my Linn LP-12 and Rega Planet.

[neo33]

"wow thats a big difference! From $1800 to $1500 ...how'd you get that deal? Did you go back and forth betweeen dealers?"

Well, I searched through the Klipsch dealer list local to the area I live in and found this place (the majority of them are Good Guys). It turned out the owner used to work together with my brother at another audio shop a while back. We chatted for a long while and finally I asked him about the RF-7 and he told me to come on down and he'll give me the best deal I can ever get with 5 years warranty and free delivery (his shop is nearly 40 miles from my home).

I spent several hours today in one of his studio listening to a variety of materials. He has just moved to this location so he did not have everything in place yet.

The RF-7s I auditioned have only less then 50 hours and they were hooked up to a home theater receiver.

The first thing I noticed when I play Diana Krall was the overpowering and loose bass. Since the speaker was placed to the extreme corners of the studio, he helped me repositioned them two meters away from the back wall and a meter away from the side wall. I fired up Diana Krall again and reset the bass dial to the 9 o'clock position (it was at the 1 o'clock postition); the bass problem is gone. I also remove the speakers grilles to make the sound more open.

But the next thing I noticed was an extremely bright high end. Krall's voice was somewhat muffled and was not as clear as I expected. He explain that perhaps the speakers have not been broken in properly. I also have trouble with the speakers imaging as I could hear much of the acoustic guitar coming only from the right speaker in Eagles' Hotel California.

I continued to listen to Krall and Eagles for a while then switched over to some Beethoven Piano Concertos and Tchaikovsky Overtures. The timbre of some instruments seemed to be unnatural and piano seemed to have a metal sound to it.

The two things that bothered me the most were the overly bright high-end and the speakers imaging difficulty. I tried reposition the speakers diferently but the imaging improved only a little.

I did not notice much of these problems over at the Good Guys showroom as I didn't have any materials with me and I was doing quick comparison between the different Klipsch Reference floorstanders with casual listening.

Anyone care to comment?

[NOSValves]

Kelly,

I have seen you mention the Asusa as being Class A biased a few of times. I have to ask what makes you think its Biased Class A ? Did you ever get the schematic for that beauty ? I would still like to see it. There is a bit more involved then Biasing a EL34 to 50Ma to make it Class A . It may very well be class A for all I know I'm just curious about the design.

Craig

[mobile homeless]

I always thought the later Klipsch to be more geared toward the HT "bright with detail" sell in showroom type of presentation but it is apparent that with good amplification, they can be made to sound better then your unfortunate experience.

As always, better amplification helps speakers, especially any type of horn. And to be honest, I havent heard an AV receiver that I could even stand with 2 channel music. Many people here love them and can listen all day. My brother has a hefty amount into his unit and it sounds as artificial to me as a trip to Busch Gardens to see "Olde Europe" the American Way.

Personally, I might side with other speakers besides the RF series but others here have them and have gotten good results. See above comments. The $1500 range is a tough one, even used.

kh

[Deang]

Poor Neo, stuck in the Matrix.

With a receiver, that titanium dome must have sounded like fingernails on chalkboard. To get the RF-7 playing music, one must really up the ante with the amplification and source. One can do good solid state with a tube preamp, but the RF-7 is really killer with a complete tube setup. Though I can't say anything regarding the 2A3, I have received the most enjoyment with the EL-34 and 300B.

[Deang]

Here you go Neo, better hurry -- I don't think they'll last long. If you're concerned about cosmetics, for a fair price I can make these look like a million bucks in a couple of days.

http://cgi.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cl.pl?ampstube&1073360736&class&3&4&