Jordan Posted January 30, 2004 Share Posted January 30, 2004 That is one expensive amp. 798.55 at PE. Is 1024 watts not enough? Is there a better amp for 400, plate or not. The advantage over the Titanic is only distortion. I read on adire's web site it moves 5 liters of air, the Titanic only up to 3. I like bass, and not having a working sub is buggin' me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
formica Posted January 30, 2004 Author Share Posted January 30, 2004 ---------------- On 1/29/2004 11:37:08 PM fabulousfrankie wrote: The Tumult is a good choice if have a really big amp and a small enclosure is one of your biggest priorities. ---------------- I think that's the gist of it. If you're looking for bang for the buck... the Tumult is not it. For less cost, you can have two Titanics powered by a smaller power amp than the Tumult requires (ie: < $$) and end up with MORE displacement. Thats basically what Frankie stated and did with his two AV15's (which I believe were slightly more efficient than the Titanic). On the other hand, if cost isn't a concern and you want relatively lots of displacement in a VERY small enclosure, the Tumult is for you. You could say it's a Sunfire killer... So many choices... so little time... Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordan Posted January 30, 2004 Share Posted January 30, 2004 Now that I think about it, the Titanic MkIII sounds like the best bang for the buck.Thanks for all your help guys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
formica Posted January 30, 2004 Author Share Posted January 30, 2004 ---------------- On 1/29/2004 2:27:11 AM smilin wrote: Formica, nice looking amp, my crownk2 just conked out Bet use guys subs rock ---------------- How did that happen?? K2 is supposed to be a killer amp... did it have anything to do with those electrical problems at your home? My baby amp is basically a QSC CX4 in JBL clothing... it was very inexpensive, and from my further testing... it has more than enough power for the stryke. I think my new sub has worsened my room's response. I'll have to really look into a BFD to EQ my room, as i did a quick test and i have a HUGE 40 to 60Hz dip in my SPL... but i get very useable output at 16Hz?! I'll try flipping the phase this weekend... and see what it gives. Later... Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordan Posted January 30, 2004 Share Posted January 30, 2004 Scratch that last post, I still haven't decided. I found an amp on PE, similar to Fire Pinches,a QSC. It is $1 more than the plate. http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&User_ID=15745375&St=8519&St2=44620321&St3=47976282&DS_ID=3&Product_ID=5458&DID=7 If I use this amp will the Tumult be better? Not putting cost into consideration. Does this amp have regualr RCA jacks, white and red. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fire pinch Posted January 30, 2004 Share Posted January 30, 2004 Hmmm yes, with that amp and considering its price, this would be a great buy for the Tumult. Bridged, it could gives 1450W into 4 ohms. But... have in mind that this amp is not fully silent, it uses a fan to cool itself. Also, this is a qsc RMX and Im using the PLX series. I was affraid at the first place to buy a QSC RMX amp because some people say that they are more noisy than the PLX. BUT... you can still change the fan if you want, once you have the amp, its feasible. In what kind of enclosure did you plan to use your future woofer (whatever you choose the AV-15 or Tumult) ??? Because if you use a Tumult in a vented enclosure, you will have to use passive radiators because a vent will certainly not fit in (it will be most likely too long). With the Tumult, you need lots of venting if you use ports, the port/ports would have to be very large, and more the ports are large, more they have to be long for a same tuning. For example, I would use a 6" FLARED port as a MINIMUM, but often in that case, the flared port lengh is > 40". This depends of how big is the enclosure in cubic ft and what's the tuning point, that was just an example. Still, with even a 6" FLARED port or a 8" port, I would consider the Tumult sub underported. Those port sizes are good for an AV-15 however. SO... bottom line, after some deductions, you will find that you most likely need to use passive radiators if you want to go vented with a Tumult. The Stryke 18" passive radiators are a very good choice, you would need two of them. But if money is important, STOP and think about it. If you go vented with a Tumult, add the cost of those passive radiators: about a good $350 if you count the shipping and some taxes maybe even a bit more. You need a powerfull amp. The Tumult is quite more costly than the AV-15. You got it? A Tumult solution is good, if you want the most powerfull woofer in a single sub and also, if you want a woofer with extremely low distortion (<3% at a Xmax of 56mm both ways according to Adire). BUT... if you want the best value between those two woofers, the Tumult and the AV-15, look no more, this is the AV-15 you must have paired with a modest amp. If you are affraid of what kind of SPL the AV-15 can do, dont worry. Its a great woofer and you can always add ANOTHER ONE later if you wish, and the total cost of a dual AV-15 setup would be still on part with a single vented Tumult matched with a powerfull Pro amp PLUS, this dual setup would give you more output than a single Tumult: 5.1L of air for the Tumult and 3.8L of air for an AV15. Well, however, even if dual AV-15 can displace 50% more air, it doesnt mean that they will give 50% more CLEAN output. They WILL have more clean output, BUT just so you know, Dan Wiggins of Adire Audio tell us that 1 Tumult = 3 Tempest in CLEAN output (1 Tempest is 2.56L of air and 1 Tumult 5.1L). Still, a dual AV-15 setup would be better value for xdB/1$. Well, finally, think about all what I said and Im sure that Frankie, Formica or even other people will tell you as well about the same thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fabulousfrankie Posted January 30, 2004 Share Posted January 30, 2004 Fire Pinch, You summed it up as well as any of us could. I had the hardest time deciding between getting a single Tumult or dual AV15's. I ended up going with the dual AV15's because I feel confident that even though only Adire woofers come with XBL motors the distortion of the current high excursion woofers is low enough for it not to make a huge difference. As if there aren't enough choices for you already, here's another great deal...the Blueprint AL1804. It's basically the 1803 which is a 18" with 25mm one-way Xmax that costs $260 shipped. http://www.audioliquidators.com/sub.html This woofer is capable of displacing even more air than a Tumult(6.25L) provided you have an amp large enough to drive it. Also check out the 1503 on the site as well. These Blueprint subs are also excellent choices if you need a small enclosure but you run into the same "problem" with the Tumult. If you use appropriate sized ports with them they are going to have to be longer than the actual enclosure so you need to use passive radiators(two of the Stryke 18" PR's would be appropriate for this woofer). Here's a thread on a Behringer amp for $350, this guy tested its output and got it to do over 2000 watts...pretty impressive for the price. Oh yeah, I just got a new job so I've been thinking of getting rid of the easy pour monoliths...I'll keep my sub ideas a secret for now until I'm absolutely sure of what I'm going to do though. I'll just say it's a little unconventional but it requires me to do a bunch more research to really see if I can get it to work though...I've only ever seen it mentioned by one other person. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordan Posted January 30, 2004 Share Posted January 30, 2004 I would most definately use the sub in a sealed inclosure. The Blueprint 1503 looks more of what I'm looking for , a 15". How would that one compare to a Tumult? Same amp.I'm just looking for the best sub, because this is alot of money to be dealin with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fire pinch Posted January 30, 2004 Share Posted January 30, 2004 Tumult vs that Blueprint, the Tumult will be more capable power wise, and even more clean output wize. But still... the AV-15 and those Blueprints + the amp which go with the respective woofer can bring more SPL for your money. Oh... and if they are again like that, the Blueprints normally have higher Fs, which means that they are more suited for punchy and chest pounding bass. The Tumult woofer as a comparison to the Blueprint 18 incher for example may have more SPL for very deep bass (<25 Hz), but it should be less powerfull in the mid-bass and punchy bass region. Especially if you choose to go with a sealed enclosure, the Blueprints may be less good in bass extension. If you want to go sealed + not to pay as much as a Tumult + you want your sub to go as low as possible, I would stay with an AV-15. I didnt modeled the AV-15 side by side with a Blueprint 15 or 18", but Im pretty sure than the AV-15 has the edge for the bass extension. P.S.: When I did some theorical outpout comparison between the Tumult and the Blueprints, I didnt compared them theorically in CLEAN output. Im really that serious, the Tumult is really unbeleivable when you considere clean output. I dont know how we should compare it against other woofers. For the moment, when I compare it, I dont say in clean output, just to be like if I had another woofers. IMHO, other DECENT woofers without the XBL2 technology are quite similir in ability to play clean bass (low distortion). Am I hallucinating or what??? I REALLY begin to wonder if I do! [img src=http://forums.klipsch.com/idealbb/images/smilies/6.gif'> I will have to ask to other Tumult owners if they notice that the Tumult has that much of a difference when we talk about low distortion bass... Frankie, This XBL2 motor technology REALLY make a difference, you absolutely have to hear it once!!! . In CLEAN output, if Dan Wiggins says that 3 Tempests = 1 Tumult, this means in CLEAN output that about 7.5 L of air = the 5.1 L of the Tumult. This means too that the Tumult is somewhat a bit of an exeption in clean bass output. Well, when I look to those liters number, I think that Im not totally correct, but you can see the ratio of clean air displacement. And now, this is pretty questionnable, how much AV-15 = 1 Tumult?? Two AV-15 = 7.6L of air right? Well... dual AV-15s will sound louder, but how much loudly clean? Is the AV-15 a cleaner sounding woofer than the Tempest? Not at the same quantity of air displaced but when they approach their respective Xmax. Who knows? Well, I did some observations and here is what I found (Tempest vs Tumult): The Tempest sounds loud, when its excursion is at about 80% of its Xmax but you can hear noticable distortion. In the other side, the Tumult sounds loud, when its excursion is at 80% of its Xmax, but it sounds incredibly cleaner. I was one who was skeptical about the XBL technology, but now, Im a beleiver! Well, I concluded this by taking some measurements with each woofers and with my ears. I dont know if other Tumult users got the same conclusions than me but well... well, IM IN A HURRY to see that new finish Frankie!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordan Posted January 30, 2004 Share Posted January 30, 2004 Does the QSC amp I mentioned have regular RCA jacks? If not thats going to be a problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fire pinch Posted January 30, 2004 Share Posted January 30, 2004 Nop, the RMX amps dont have any RCA jacks. You can see it at this address: http://www.qscaudio.com/images/hi_res/product_shot/rmx1850_bk.jpg My QSC PLX is like that too, it doesnt have any RCA jacks. It has XLR and 1/4" Mono jacks... BUT you can still buy some adapters, this is what I did (Mono 1/4 to RCA converter). And there is something I wanna add Jordan. Does the amount of spent money is important for your next sub? If money is the most limiting factor, and you want the best bang for your buck sub (between the Av-15s, blueprints and Tumult) I would still choose an AV-15 sub. Just my humble opinion... and I would make it vented. A greatly tuned sub can sound as good... well almost, as a sealed sub. Always considering the money, for more punchy chest bass and when forgeting a bit the bass <25 Hz, I would look for the Blueprints 15s or 18s (if the size doesnt bother you). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordan Posted January 30, 2004 Share Posted January 30, 2004 I looked over at PE and found some adapters you reccomended. I still like the Tumult though. Are you going to put more pictures up of your finished product yet? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fabulousfrankie Posted January 30, 2004 Share Posted January 30, 2004 ---------------- On 1/30/2004 9:16:38 PM fire pinch wrote: Frankie, This XBL2 motor technology REALLY make a difference, you absolutely have to hear it once!!! . In CLEAN output, if Dan Wiggins says that 3 Tempests = 1 Tumult, this means in CLEAN output that about 7.5 L of air = the 5.1 L of the Tumult. This means too that the Tumult is somewhat a bit of an exeption in clean bass output. Well, when I look to those liters number, I think that Im not totally correct, but you can see the ratio of clean air displacement. And now, this is pretty questionnable, how much AV-15 = 1 Tumult?? Two AV-15 = 7.6L of air right? Well... dual AV-15s will sound louder, but how much loudly clean? Is the AV-15 a cleaner sounding woofer than the Tempest? Not at the same quantity of air displaced but when they approach their respective Xmax. Who knows? Well, I did some observations and here is what I found (Tempest vs Tumult): The Tempest sounds loud, when its excursion is at about 80% of its Xmax but you can hear noticable distortion. In the other side, the Tumult sounds loud, when its excursion is at 80% of its Xmax, but it sounds incredibly cleaner. I was one who was skeptical about the XBL technology, but now, Im a beleiver! Well, I concluded this by taking some measurements with each woofers and with my ears. I dont know if other Tumult users got the same conclusions than me but well... well, IM IN A HURRY to see that new finish Frankie!! < p] ---------------- fire pinch, I have no doubt that the XBL motor is superior to most conventional motors and I'm convined of it's low distortion abilities(I really would like to hear one though) even at extreme excursions. I was just saying that even with my "puny" conventional woofer(compared to the Tumult) it's good enough for me since most of the time they're not operating anywhere near their limits. I've done a quick little subjective test with different subs that all had similar FR and found that when they weren't being pushed I couldn't tell the difference between my dual AV15's, a single vented DIY sub using an SVS CS driver, and a vented DIY sub using a Cerwin Vega Vega 128(car sub). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted January 30, 2004 Share Posted January 30, 2004 Rob, I can't tell yet, gotta get a fuse tomorrow, and plug in another outlet, fingers, legs, balls all crossed I also am ordering a high end line conditioner/voltage reg. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fire pinch Posted January 30, 2004 Share Posted January 30, 2004 I was just saying that even with my "puny" conventional woofer(compared to the Tumult) ----------------- Cmon Frankie the AV-15 is not that puny vs the Tumult!! Hahha!! I would like too, to hear an AV-15 one day. Damn, I would like so much that you and Formica live NEAR near my house! ---------------- I've done a quick little subjective test with different subs that all had similar FR and found that when they weren't being pushed I couldn't tell the difference between my dual AV15's, a single vented DIY sub using an SVS CS driver, and a vented DIY sub using a Cerwin Vega Vega 128(car sub) ---------------- This is what Ive seen too with different subwoofers. Same thing with the Tumult, except that you can push it nearer its Xmax with less distortion. The thing is that I really really didnt beleive this at first... because like you, I thought that it would be a bit better due to the motor technology, I didnt think that I would perceive a good difference. I had in mind that the Tumult would just have more excursion and air displacment capability but it has more than that! Maybe this is one reason for the price of this woofer which is considerably higher. ---------------- Jordan, Yes, those pics and maybe some other things should come tomarrow, satursday. Im gonna try to get ride of this "room mode" around 40 Hz. But I noticed that the crossover wasnt set correctly, it wasnt at 80 Hz, this can affect the FR curve, I should say it changes it *Whooops little update* Frankie, Did you see my FR curve (which is quite shorted) results in my Tumult topic? Does it looks pretty like the one you had with your sealed AV-15? Do you have a room mode? Any EQ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
formica Posted January 31, 2004 Author Share Posted January 31, 2004 ---------------- On 1/30/2004 11:32:54 PM fire pinch wrote: Cmon Frankie the AV-15 is not that puny vs the Tumult!! Hahha!! I would like too, to hear an AV-15 one day. Damn, I would like so much that you and Formica live NEAR near my house! ---------------- Nope... it's not that puny... Just thought I'd repost a picture of the AV15 next to a Klipsch K22 woofer (Heresy 12")... Fire, it's not like I'm that far... just a little over 2hrs away. Will you be coming to town for the Festival Son & Image of Montreal, from April 2 @ 4th ? It would be a chance to meet up... perhaps a couple of other members might be interested in joining in... As for Jordan's Sub... The RMX amps are good bargains when it comes to pro power amps... esp if you decide to upgrade, as they have an acceptable resale value (better than most plate amps) There was a thread on another forum about fan noise between a RMX and PLX amps, and, if I recall, Kyle from Acoustic Visions mentioned that they (RMX) are noisier but not by much. I believe it's from the fact that one has a two speed circuit vs a continuously variable one in the PLX. My amp has continuously variable Panaflo fan and I can hear it when during a quiet sections. I will repeat as already mentioned... the Tumult advantage is if you need a powerful sub in a small package, and cost is secondary. You would be looking at about three AV15s with amplification for the same price. Although some people will make it seem like there is an "ultimate" ... in subwoofer drivers it's more a question of which sub has the compromises which best suit your needs. You first have to decide what you need/want. Later... Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fire pinch Posted January 31, 2004 Share Posted January 31, 2004 ---------------- On 1/31/2004 3:18:32 AM formica wrote: Fire, it's not like I'm that far... just a little over 2hrs away. Will you be coming to town for the Festival Son & Image of Montreal, from April 2 @ 4th ? It would be a chance to meet up... perhaps a couple of other members might be interested in joining in... Later... Rob ---------------- Umm... from April 2 @ 4th... if my parents let me go with their car, I dont own a car actually, I use the one of my parents. I can still use it when I want, they are cool for that but travelling a "long" distance like that, I dont know if they will permit this. We'll see! And if I go to Montreal, it would be cool if I could stay for a minimum of 2 days, I would go visit some friends too. Ohhh but Im thinking about it, I could use a bus!! Bus... can we say that word in english too? LOL Make sure that you will send to me a mail one week before the ultimate date in order to make me remember the event and I'll see what I can do. Ohhh and Montreal, this is near the house of The_Ear!!! Ear, would you let me come visiting you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
formica Posted February 2, 2004 Author Share Posted February 2, 2004 I'll start a new thread for the show... every time it comes around I never seem to remember or be available. I'm trying to make a point of going this year. As for the sub, I should get some time to do a couple more tests this week and have a better idea of how it performs. Will post up the results... Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fire pinch Posted February 3, 2004 Share Posted February 3, 2004 ---------------- On 2/2/2004 5:14:33 PM formica wrote: As for the sub, I should get some time to do a couple more tests this week and have a better idea of how it performs. Will post up the results... Rob ---------------- Yup, this is what Im gonna try to do as well The college eats up my time! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordan Posted February 4, 2004 Share Posted February 4, 2004 Is there a website with pre-made home subwoofer boxes? I've narrowed my search to an AV12 and an RMX850 for $474 without box. I just don't think I need all the power and displacement of the Tumult because my room is small,10x10x8ft. What are the wiring options for the AV12? I'll be ordering from here. http://www.acoustic-visions.com/~acoustic/products/subwoofer_drivers/stryke_av12-15/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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