IB Slammin Posted November 25, 2003 Share Posted November 25, 2003 ---------------- On 11/25/2003 4:37:32 PM paulparrot wrote: Mr. Jazman, I skimmed through the article you refer to. What it is is some hi-fi dudes sitting down to have an audition of equipment. They are particularly impressed with the La Scalas. They *claim* that their 2 watt amp played "Also Sprach Zarathustra" (AKA Theme to 2001: A Space Odyssey) to thrilling levels. Only someone delusional would make his first choice for playing an extremely dynamic symphonic work a 2-watter. Gimme a break. I don't doubt that these hi-fi dudes were so thrilled to hear a truly high-efficiency speaker that they lost their objectivity for a while and figured they could do anything now with low watt amps. They let their enthusiasm cloud their judgment about what they were hearing, that's all. Jazman, if you would be so good, please explain to me how a 2-watt amp could give the listener drawn in that ad the benefit of 115db peaks. ---------------- Thank you Paul. tc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrot Posted November 25, 2003 Author Share Posted November 25, 2003 I find the 5-watt amp quote that PWK was fond of using somewhat ambiguous. Was the emphasis on *good*, as in most 5-watt amps are not good, and he'd like a good one. Or did the statement mean "All the power that anyone needs is 5 watts," as some people seem to take it. I think if he meant the latter, he'd have said it. I think the most reasonable interpretation is that PWK was not that thrilled with the 5-watt amps that were available. Further, *all* Klipsch literature recommends 20 watts minimum for every Heritage speaker. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Painful Reality Posted November 25, 2003 Share Posted November 25, 2003 ---------------- On 11/25/2003 8:21:58 PM paulparrot wrote: I find the 5-watt amp quote that PWK was fond of using somewhat ambiguous. Was the emphasis on *good*, as in most 5-watt amps are not good, and he'd like a good one. Or did the statement mean "All the power that anyone needs is 5 watts," as some people seem to take it. I think if he meant the latter, he'd have said it. I think the most reasonable interpretation is that PWK was not that thrilled with the 5-watt amps that were available. Further, *all* Klipsch literature recommends 20 watts minimum for every Heritage speaker. ---------------- Convert to judaism and interpret the Torah is the only advice I can give you after reading this. Oh! the dilemna! What did PWK really meant about this 5W quote!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrot Posted November 25, 2003 Author Share Posted November 25, 2003 What do *you* think he meant, Painful? Go out on a limb. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazman Posted November 25, 2003 Share Posted November 25, 2003 Parrot, As usual. You don't address the issues discussed in the article, but skirt around it with something else. You discount the account of experienced listeners because they don't say what you want to hear. Any of your disciples should also try to read and understand. The point is, efficient speakers will get the power monkey off your back, thus allowing you to let go of your 20 watt minimum phobia. Please remember that the 20 watt "recommendation" is just that. A recommendation is not a requirement. Quality of watts and quantity of watts are also different. Parrot, I'm not afriad to listen to and enjoy PP amps. Why are you so dogmatic and opposed to quality lower powered SET amps? Are you afraid you would have to eat your words? I can only guess that in your case, ignorance is bliss. Be blissful! Klipsch out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Painful Reality Posted November 25, 2003 Share Posted November 25, 2003 It might come as a shock to you but I never spent one second wondering about it. Now if you wish to rule your life about what Klipsch meant, thought, liked, disliked... etc. Well, have it your way! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrot Posted November 25, 2003 Author Share Posted November 25, 2003 Mr. Jazman: Me? Afraid of an amp? HAHAHAHAHAHA! I would be happy to listen to a low-watt amp in my familiar surroundings, but there is simply no way that it could thrive in this room. So it really would be pretty pointless. There are dozens of people on this board very happy with low-power amps, but there ain't a single one of them hitting 115dB peaks in a big room, like in that ad. Low watt amps are what they are, and I have no problem with that. But I'm not going to let someone try to con someone with claims that a 2 watt amp is the sun and the moon. A 2-watt amp has certain limitations, and there is no point in denying it. The laws of physics do not change mysteriously when SET is in the room. I reject the notion that low power done right equals unparalleled quality; and that higher power automatically means lesser quality. And I also reject the idea that these "experienced listeners" are anyone I should be mindful of. You can find experienced listeners who will say anything, as I said before. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrot Posted November 25, 2003 Author Share Posted November 25, 2003 ---------------- On 11/25/2003 8:58:38 PM painful reality wrote: It might come as a shock to you but I never spent one second wondering about it. Now if you wish to rule your life about what Klipsch meant, thought, liked, disliked... etc. Well, have it your way! ---------------- What a dodge, Painful. It's not that tough of a question. Anyway, I will have you know that I have modelled my entire life after Paul W. Klipsch and that before I do anything, I think to myself, "What would PWK have done in this situation?" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Painful Reality Posted November 25, 2003 Share Posted November 25, 2003 What a dodge, Painful. It's not that tough of a question. Anyway, I will have you know that I have modelled my entire life after Paul W. Klipsch and that before I do anything, I think to myself, "What would PWK have done in this situation?" ---------------- Can I suggest avoiding wearing the striped suits he seemed to enjoy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leok Posted November 25, 2003 Share Posted November 25, 2003 Paul, The answer to whether or not I could handle 115dB is whether or not I have to sacrifice the quality of what's going on at 75dB and lower. If I do, the answer is "sometimes." Leo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3dzapper Posted November 25, 2003 Share Posted November 25, 2003 The 5watt amp quote by PWK was nothing more than a paraphrase of TR's "What this world needs is a good 5 cent cigar." Trying to read more into it is meaningless. Klipsch recommended 20 watts to achieve concert hall levels in a large room. That does not mean that one can not be happy at lower levels. I have had a little EL-34 SET produce my normal listening volume if 90+-db in my room. However that amp lacked bass impact. If I wanted a good bottom end I needed to equalize the signal. The eight watts of my 300b SET produce nicer bass and stronger dynamics but for everyday listening I like my Scott 299c 7591 PP amp. But that is just me in my room. Your results may vary. That sounds sort of wishy-washy. Heaven forbid does that mean I'm a Moderate?! Rick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrot Posted November 25, 2003 Author Share Posted November 25, 2003 3D, In the midst of all this I had completely forgotten PWK's sense of humor and that he patterned that phrase after the 5-cent cigar. Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coda Posted November 25, 2003 Share Posted November 25, 2003 My personal experience, with demanding musical peaks the 2A3 is usually perceived as graceful and coherent. To put 115 dB in perspective, Painful: 140 dB = firearms, air raid siren 130 dB = jackhammer 120 dB = jet plane takeoff Extremely Loud: 110 dB = rock music 100 dB = snowmobile, chain saw 90 dB = lawnmower Very Loud: 80 dB = alarm clock 70 dB = busy traffic, vacuum cleaner 60 dB = conversation, dishwasher Moderate: 50 dB = moderate rainfall 40 dB = quiet room Faint: 30 dB = whisper Translation: Careful what you ask for.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Painful Reality Posted November 25, 2003 Share Posted November 25, 2003 Rosebud... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrot Posted November 25, 2003 Author Share Posted November 25, 2003 Are Friends Electric, The list you posted is not really relevant. We are talking about instantaneous peaks in music, lasting just milliseconds sometimes. It's an entirely different thing to be working around presses stamping metal parts all day, say, or to be running a jackhammer, than it is to hear a few minutes worth of loud music, less than a second at a time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazman Posted November 26, 2003 Share Posted November 26, 2003 ---------------- On 11/25/2003 9:06:22 PM paulparrot wrote: Mr. Jazman: Me? Afraid of an amp? HAHAHAHAHAHA! I would be happy to listen to a low-watt amp in my familiar surroundings, but there is simply no way that it could thrive in this room. So it really would be pretty pointless. There are dozens of people on this board very happy with low-power amps, but there ain't a single one of them hitting 115dB peaks in a big room, like in that ad. Low watt amps are what they are, and I have no problem with that. But I'm not going to let someone try to con someone with claims that a 2 watt amp is the sun and the moon. A 2-watt amp has certain limitations, and there is no point in denying it. The laws of physics do not change mysteriously when SET is in the room. I reject the notion that low power done right equals unparalleled quality; and that higher power automatically means lesser quality. And I also reject the idea that these "experienced listeners" are anyone I should be mindful of. You can find experienced listeners who will say anything, as I said before. ---------------- Mr. Parrot, I hate to say it, but you really are an idiot. It becomes more clear all the time. BTW, What are the dimensions of this great room you have? I don't believe you're hitting 115db peaks. So you claim to be a Paul Klipsch disciple? Well Hal-le-lu-yah! Let's all fall on our kness! What a joke. You're the only con artist here. You constantly incorrectly state information which you then argue with fallacious logic. All amps have limitations. That has never been the issue. Statements like this; "I reject the notion that low power done right equals unparalleled quality; and that higher power automatically means lesser quality." Where the hell did that come from? Then there's; "And I also reject the idea that these "experienced listeners" are anyone I should be mindful of. You can find experienced listeners who will say anything, as I said before." Mr. Parrot, you've only proven that YOU will say anything. It seems you reject anything that does not come from your mouth, oh excuse me I meant your beak, no matter how incorrect it may be. Yes Mr. Parrot, I now agree with Mike, you are a ******* idiot. Klipsch out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxg Posted November 26, 2003 Share Posted November 26, 2003 "We are talking about instantaneous peaks in music, lasting just milliseconds sometimes" And these make such a difference to your enjoyment of the music? Frankly there is only one proper solution here. As we all know the ONLY important thing about home audio is how loud it will go: Take 1 pair of KHorns and a decently sized power amp (say 200wpc - to give plenty of room). A nice SS Rotel would do the job. Turn the volume upon your pre-amp to ouput 100 watts continuous. Live the experience of 124 db/w/m continuous (accepting you have only 6 dB for those pesky instantaneous peaks). Then see your doctor. Of course it would be better to do this with a really good multi-channel amp - and 4 Khorns - or is it 6 now(?) - sprinkling liberaly with SVS subs to taste. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sheltie dave Posted November 26, 2003 Share Posted November 26, 2003 Paul, at the risk of chasing tails in circles again, look at your push-pull paradigm. Consider human anatomy, specifically the ear's ability to act as a natural dynamic sound expander at low volumes and a compresser at high volumes. Consider that many on the forum have experienced loss of hearing and a significant threshold shift as we age. Now consider that Klipsch speakers are completely outside the normal constraints for loudspeakers. Consider that vacumm tube amplifiers are far outside the normal constraints for sound amplification. This is the point you are at, Paul. Maybe bruised, battered, and forced to write bad checks, with your ears on a permanent compression cycle, but you are here. Now consider that many people using SET amps, because they do not need to listen to van halen at 115 db instantaneous peak at five paces, can enjoy listen to "The Planets" at 102 db at five paces, with a different degree of musicality, seperation, and clarity. Paul, no one is making claims that SET amps will drive speakers to audio nirvana at 115 dB, nor do these claims need to be fostered. Open your heart and accept that nirvana can be reached earlier, and more consistently, in many genres with SET amps and yo, yes, even you, can achieve salvation. Next up on the turntable, Neil Diamond with "Brother Love's Travelling Salvation Show," followed by the Doobies with....(fill in the blank...) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JBryan Posted November 26, 2003 Share Posted November 26, 2003 "What the world needs is a good five watt tube amp." Let's not forget where we are - PWK was biased. What the world REALLY needs (politics aside) is a good 120dB efficient speaker! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrot Posted November 26, 2003 Author Share Posted November 26, 2003 On 11/26/2003 5:55:06 AM maxg wrote: And these make such a difference to your enjoyment of the music? YOU BET. IT IS THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN YAWNS AND GOOSEBUMPS. As we all know the ONLY important thing about home audio is how loud it will go: THIS IS A RIDICULOUS IDEA, ONE THAT HAS NEVER BEEN ADVANCED BY ANYONE ON THIS FORUM. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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