Just Starting Out... Tight Budget

[itzo]

G'day all,

I'm a student from Australia and am looking at taking the first step into the HT scene. I've been browsing around these forums for about 6 months now, and you guys seem like a great lot.

Anyway, down to business: as I'm tight on money i thought i'd start out with a nice sub and a couple of bookshelfs, but get a 5.1 amp, so i can expand later. I'll be using the system mainly for music, but i'll also hook it up to either my comp for movies and games, or to my DVD player for TV.

OK, well i'll start with the subwoofer. From the endless praises i've read on this forum an SVS subwoofer is definately the the way to go. The PB1-ISD looks bloody awesome for its price, but i'm still a bit hesitant seeing as how the shipping cost is almost 1/2 the price of the sub itself. Just imagine if i needed to send it back for warranty

For the bookshelfs i was looking at getting a pair of RB-25 speakers, in the cherry finish.

The biggest uncertainty in my opinion was the amp. From what I've read, the Denon, B&K and Pioneer are the best matches for Klipsch speakers. Unfortunately I think the Denon and B&K amps are out of my price range, however the Pioneer VSX-D712K looks to be a decent price with good specs.

So to wrapup:

SVS PB1-ISD $600

2x Klipsch RB-25 $300

Pioneer VSC-D712K $300

Prices in US$ excluding shipping.

What are your thoughts and suggestions?

Maybe someone has better ideas for products available more cheaply in Australia?

[Antagon]

If you can, try and go for the RB35s or the RB75's.

The PB2ISD is 900 dollars last I checked.

And check into Harman Kardon, another great match with Klipsch.

[DrWho]

i would personally take the approach of making the sub the last addition to your HT. Getting a nice pair of full range mains would sound better for music and HT. if you buy small now and get a small sub, you're gonna have to deal with replacing both as your system improves. (granted, you might be able to put bookshelves as rears, but you'll still end up changing the sub out).

so if you have room, I'd recommend the largest pair of RF's you can afford (RF-7 maybe?)

[itzo]

Antagon, I can't really afford much more than I've listed there, remembering shipping to Australia is insane (around US$300 for the sub alone).

Am I going to truly regret choosing the RB-25s and only the PB1ISD? Maybe I should save more money?

As far as the Harman Kardon amps are concerned, they don't appear to have huge outputs, which amp might you suggest?

DrWho, you'd suggest i just get a pair of RFs and live without the sub in the meantime?

The thing is, to power those RFs I'm going to need a MUCH bigger (and i assume considerably more expensive) amp to power them. The Pioneer only outputs 100W continous per channel, the RFs look to need 125-150W each and have much higher peaks than the Pioneer could ever hope to output.

What reasonably priced amp would you suggest I pair up with midrange RFs (say RF-5s)?

[arthurs]

agree with Who, and you can power those RF's with 100. I've always believed get the speakers right first and build and upgrade around them as you go.

[DrWho]

Here's the basic specs on the RF-35's:

37Hz-20kHz ±3dB

98dB sensitivity

125 watts maximum continuous

This means that with 1 watt of power, you are getting 98dB of output per speaker...100watts into two speakers in a room will bring you around 120dB of output which is the threshold of volume before ear damage starts happening. you will prob never listen to anything over 100db (maybe 108 with peaks in the bass only if you like it loud).

All that to say, I wouldn't worry about having "enough" watts in your reciever to power some full range speakers. also i think you can get a pair of 35's for under $1200 (is that your price range?). one of klipsch's greatest strenghts is highly sensitive speakers that don't need a lot of watts to get the loud volumes.

as far as reciever...i personally love denon and would recommend the 1803. i bought one a while back for $350 new, but it has since been replaced by another model, so it's probably cheaper now. that's not to say your pioneer isn't good, just that im biased towards denon if you can get it

to continue the route im suggesting, your next purchase would be a center channel and then the surround speakers and then a subwoofer. and by then you'll probably buy a new reciever too...and if you're really picky, you might consider buying new mains and bump the old ones to act as surrounds for 5 channel music and keep the old surrounds for the HT.

the alternate route that you first suggested would involve buying a sub and bookshelf speakers. then you'd need to buy a center channel and then probably buy new mains again and move the bookshelfs to act as surrounds. And then you'll end up buying another sub to keep up with the new mains. and then depending on the mains you bought, you may end up desiring a new center speaker as well.

another thing to consider is that you can complete your HT with cheapo surrounds (garage sales, friends, family are good sources) and a good center channel (bday/xmas present? ebay?) and you'll be set for a while.

[Fish]

itzo,the system you mentioned would prolly sound fine.I would,however,go rf somethin and a HK 1xx,2xx or Denon 18xx,28xx maybe forget the sub(just for a while).The floor speaks will give much better performance,and you need a decent signal(the pioneer may be but,note pioneer distortion/watt numbers on all but Elite).But you know what size etc.. fits your needs,g'day.

[space_cowboy]

Don't get caught up in the watts war, my H/K at 45x5 or 50x2 is plenty power. Hell, I was just listening to LP's with my ASL's... 8x2 , really no more needed.

[Antagon]

itzo, I was just commenting on your first post, you have the PB2ISD listed as 600, when its really 900.

Get a nice receiver, and a good set a mains. The RF35's are great, but if you can, get the RF3II's, same speaker, just an older model, and cheaper.

I use the HK AVR520, puts out 75 watts per channel, and that sucker gets LOUD at around -12, I can still go +10 I believe.

Watts arent everything, and you wont need 150 watts+ to power Klipsch, unlike other inneficient speakers.

EDIT: I'd get the mains and the receiver first, then a sub, then center, then surrounds.

[itzo]

Alright thanks for your help everybody, it looks like I'm going to look at going for:

2x RF-35

Denon AVR-1804

This setup looks very awesome indeed, though i'm still pissed at the huge shipping charges on everything from US, and thus considering getting something manufactured closer to home :/

The Denon amp is RRP AUS$1200, which is about US$880

One RF-35 is RRP AUD$1125, which is about US$830

[lancestorm]

I thought the RF-35's were going for about $1000 a PAIR. Whereas you are saying $830US for just one of them? That can't be right...?

[Colin]

I would not ship something overseas. I would try to find used equipment in your area. Often big ole horns, not just Klipsch, but Altec-Lansing and JBL as well, are sold cheap because of their size and poor match with chinsty modern electronics.

Certainly buy the biggest and best loudspeakers you can get. Loudspeakers are the only bargain in audio they are where you get the most bang for your buck. Buy the best now and they will never be the weak link in your home movie and music reproduction system: they will be the foundation.

Also look for heavy, vintage receivers. My 70s solid-state harmon/kardon 330B receiver sounds much better than the few $500 receivers I have heard. It cost $5 at a yard sale. Try to find a used stereo shop that lets you return items you dont like.

In my opinion, a powerful sub makes much more of an impact on music and movies than surround sound. It affects all sounds, not just multi-channel and it provokes a tactile, not just audible, response. You can feel a powerful sub and the music it makes.

[DMF]

Colin touched on the issue of how to approach "Home Theater" from scratch and DrWho pretty much nailed it. If you can't afford to pay for the equivalent of a new car in one go what do you go for first? Do you go for a big screen? Lots of channels using cheep speekers? A slammin' sub to cover the fact that there's no body to the rest of the spectrum?

IMO the advice that you're getting here is the best. You want to start with two good full-range speakers and decent used two-channel electronics. If it was me I'd go immediately for a separate amp and preamp. The preamp will go away soon, but if the amp is good you can leave it on the mains for years.

Then a DVD player and a decent TV.

Then you can start thinking about multiple channels. First move will be to replace the preamp with an A/V preamp/processor, or add a used "surround processor" (not as good and doesn't do video, but cheaper and will drive the rest of the audio system).

Then you can think about the move to 5.1. You'll need a GOOD center speaker to match the mains. Surrounds are non-critical and you can go cheap there, maybe recycling some cheap bookshelves. Add a 3- or 5-channel amp (or replace the mains amp with a 5- or 7-channel amp).

If your mains are good, only now do you need to think about a sub. If the bottom just isn't there in the mains, you might want a powered sub before the jump to 5.1.

By this point, you'll have a good idea what to upgrade next, but the basic Home Theater functionality will be in place. Enjoy.

[glennbarn]

Hi Itzo,

I'm from Melbourne, Victoria. I don't think you need to have these equipment shipped all the way from the US especially when you got a local dealer near you.

I bought my RF-15 for AUD$1,139.00 a pair from Forward Audio in Richmond. I bought the RW10 but returned it for an B&W ASW600 subwoofer after finding out that it does not suite my room very well, Another reason why you should buy it from a local dealer.

I paid cash for these stuff but when I bought my Harman Kardon AVR5550 (AVR525 in the US), I was able to get it for 6 months interest free. You might want to go this route too. This receiver has enough power that my 5 x 9 meter room is small for it. If I play it at max, perhaps my neighbours would begin to complain.

Its not only the watts rating that you should consider. Try looking at the Ampere rating too. HK says, amplifiers are so called because they supply current ( which is measured in amperes ) to drive your speakers and not watts, otherwise they would have been called "wattifier" !

My plan is to use the RF15 as surround at some point but I believe that my AVR5550 will be good enough for the years to come.

[itzo]

Yeah glennbarn, it was my intention to get the klipsch speakers from a local dealer, the price i listed was an estimated price, based on other prices i've received from them (for other speakers).

My worry was about repairs (in or out of warranty) on the speakers: do they have to be sent to US to be repaired? or is there someone in Australia who can handle it?

SVS sell direct to the public, meaning if i want an SVS sub, i need to get it shipped out here.

How are the RF-15s? Everyone here keeps telling me go bigger bigger bigger, i can only possibly afford RF-35 and that's gonna mean going without a subwoofer for a good while. What's the low-end like on the RF-15s? Could you possibly make do without a sub?

EDIT: As far as the watts/amps thingy, aren't watts just volts times amps? So i assume the voltage would be constant (240V in this case?)? Meaning the watts are directly proportional to the amps. i don't know too much about this though, so please correct me if i'm wrong.

EDIT (mk ii): i just noticed how good your deal was on the RF-15s, maybe i can cut about AU$400 off the price when i shop around for RF-35s then.

[DrWho]

i have heard the RF-3II's in numerous situations and often wondered why anyone would want a sub with them; they have such tight and powerful bass (down to at least 40Hz). The RF-35's are a very similar speaker (probably better). Recently, I've been able to listen to the same RF-3II's now combined with an RSW-12. When set for a flat freq. response, the difference was barely noticeable. But when set by ear, the sub allowed the bass to be exagerated (which often sounds better to the normal ear).

All that to say...I really doubt the bass will seem lacking if you choose not to get the sub for now (just as long as your new mains are good full-range speakers and you haven't gotten accustomed to exagerated bass).

[glennbarn]

Itzo, my suggestion is for you to look for the locally avialable and locally supported equipment. Whatever the quality or feature an equipment has, you might regret the decision when it dies on you during the warranty period or it just does not meet your expectation or application from the start.

You might want to visit your local dealers, if you can audition the exact speakers and receiver you plan to buy, then you can then weigh whether its really necessary to have the sub now.

As for the power, I think that the more applicable formula is: Power = Amperes(squared) x Resistance(ohms).

Assuming that your receiver is to deliver a constant 70 watts per channel for example, the resistance of the speakers changes depending on the sound that it has to produce, the current (Amperes) that the receiver has to send should compensate to maintain the power. A poor supply of current normally results to an inferior sound.

I hope this helps.

[glennbarn]

Itzo, as for the sound of the RF-15, I feel like they sounded better when paired with a sub. Having a sub could be determined by your application and personal taste. I like a deep sounding bass and I feel the RF-15 doesn't go deep as I wanted it. I do not think for a minute that my ASW600 sub could come close to the SVS sub but I have to be pratical in terms of the long term support for my equipment and my budget.

Some people may find the RF-15 good enough but for my Home Theater applications, I feel like I really need a sub. Where you finally position your speakers and the type of room you have might make it unnecessary to have sub.

Good luck and do tell us what you ended up with and how it goes.

[Thors1982]

I agree with a lot of the others, I am a college student still making my Home Theater.

Best to start with very little Good quality stuff than wish you had better later. Get the best floor standings you can affordnow , and buy a sub later.

[DrWho]

still making?!? lol, u got the whole R-7 series!