artto Posted February 17, 2004 Share Posted February 17, 2004 ---------------- On 2/16/2004 2:32:56 PM bdc wrote: What does he mean by "phases are all over the place? ---------------- I believe he is referring to the physical distance difference between the bass, mid & treble drivers. They are in the same vertical plane, but the bass driver is aprox. 0.0003 seconds time-wise, behind the treble driver. As PWK put it, "one can manintain 'zero time delay', and suffer 30% modulation. With a 3 way horn system, one might tolerate 0.0003 second time delay but reduce total modulation distortion to under 1% at the same (acoustic) power output. Choosing low distortion is not a 'trade-off'. It is just good judgement." Besides that, all crossover networks introduce phase shift (which, if the designer is very shrewd, aka PWK, this can be used to your advantage. Most amplifiers exhibit this too. Ask the guy which ear he listens with. If the driver array was phase aligned within 5mm for one ear, it must certainly be 200mm out of phase for the other ear (PWK) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg928gts Posted February 17, 2004 Share Posted February 17, 2004 Maybe if some of the studios used Khorns as monitors, we'd have a greater selection of well recorded music to listen to. I recently had a chance to audition a set of so called "audiophile" speakers the other day for several hours, listening to all different types of music. While I think the system sounded very nice, I was oh so happy to get home to my khorns. Just no comparison IMO. Greg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted February 17, 2004 Share Posted February 17, 2004 so they are horn loaded! ahhhhh (dang it) i was never sure if they were or not...just knew the tweeter sits inside the voicecoil for the woofer and all that. well i will still stand by my point, that at the same sensitivity a direct radiator should sound better than a horn loaded speaker. the reason being that there are a few compromises that horns introduce. don't quote me on this, but the impression that i've gotten from lots of reading (wish i could find a certain article) is that horns introduce another type of distortion. there are also resonances that always occur (though tweaked designs minimize them) and the different flare rates and all those are all choosing which resonances happen. there is also a certain beaming effect where the frequency response changes greatly off-axis (this also occurs with direct radiators, but it happens differently). perhaps other more knowledgable people might chime in...i would never claim to be an expert. i suppose i should also mention that there are different types of audiophiles. the audiophile sound I'm referring to sounds "exactly" like the sounds made by real instruments. I'm only 19 years old (20 in march), but i have spent the last 12 years spending on average over 20 hours every week in a very expensive studio/installed sound system (i should bust out some pics one of these days). There is nothing more exciting (in the audio world) than recording something and then hearing the "exact" same thing play through the speakers. There have been so many times when I would swear that I couldn't hear a difference...and then the system would get upgraded and all the old guys would A/B me the difference and I would stand astonished as to how I previously thought that A was the epitomy of realistic. to me, an audiophile sound is when you can't tell the difference between real life and recorded audio. the problem is that it is an ongoing process...your ears are constantly changing as well as the way you listen changes and even the gear gets "better" (or worse in some cases). For someone who has never heard anything different, it would seem like heresy when someone told them that their A really does suck compared to B. btw, the horns we use in this studio that I spend so much time in have a sensitivity of 130db...or was it 113? im not sure (will need to check), but im pretty certain they're 130db. yes i know, totally insane crazy. the irony is i still prefer to mix on and listen to music on some old realistic reference monitors (realistic is the brand). they have a small 4" driver with a 1" tweeter and are about 86db sensitive inside a metal case mounted to the wall. talk about crazy difference. as far as tube amps go...they just introduce a distortion that sounds pleasing to the ears and it helps mask a lot of the harshness present in audio due to an over flaw in the basic design of all the equipment being used. if it sounds better, then it certainly isn't bad, but tube amps don't face in the direction of the perfect playback of audio. so for now in our A until a new B is heard, they are better. to be honest though, we're at a point in audio where someone needs to introduce a new approach. the last 50 years have just been overly tweaking a design that is faulty in nature. but that's not to say the results aren't amazing, just that we're quickly coming to a point of overly-tweaked out. but perhaps that's a concept for another thread Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy Landau Posted February 17, 2004 Share Posted February 17, 2004 DrWho, Thanks for the long explanation. Now I understand why modern recordings suck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike stehr Posted February 17, 2004 Share Posted February 17, 2004 130 decibel sensitivity? What speakers are those? If they do the SPL of jet engines, then I want a pair. You sure that isn't 113? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TBrennan Posted February 17, 2004 Share Posted February 17, 2004 Dr Who---Yeah, the Tannoy treble driver is a horn. The compression driver diaphragm is at the back of the woofer magnet and the horn is an expanding channel through the pole piece. The actual woofer cone itself is also part of the horn. I have a buddy whose a Tannoy guy, Tannoy guys get real weird about which line of drivers are best, which phase plug is better; the old "pepper pot" or the new "tulip", and they get real heavy into the Alnico vs ferrite thing. The general agreement among the more rational types is that the ferrites have superior performence but the Alnico cultists have a hissy-fit when that's said. Yeah, there is a form of distortion caused by the nonlinearity of the air in the throat of the horn, this is caused by the high pressures there. Generally this distortion is lowered by the use of larger throats or less compression at the throat. Less compression means lower efficiency, thus a trade-off for a given diaphragm size between efficiency and distortion. The JBL Pro website has some info on a family of horns JBL introduced with a new phase-plug and throat structure meant to minimize this distortion. I think that different people are sensitive to different types of distortion and that people who don't like horns are probably sensitive to this form of distortion. Whereas horn lovers are probably sensitive to distortion caused by magnetic nonlinearities and IM distortion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-MAN Posted February 17, 2004 Share Posted February 17, 2004 While I think that Klipsch has lost some of its previous lustre (IMO) due to its competition with the 5+ channel crowd, I would say that instead of "looking down on Klipsch as an audiophile company" I still regard the Heritage line as setting the standard in BUILD QUALITY, DESIGN, and PERFORMANCE. I would regard that as LOOKING UP, not looking down. What can one say to the willfully ignorant? DM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doctorcilantro Posted February 17, 2004 Share Posted February 17, 2004 -==-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= The most exciting phrase in science, the one that heralds new discoveries, is not "Eureka!" ("I found it!") but rather "Hmmm... that's funny...." - Isaac Asimov Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artto Posted February 17, 2004 Share Posted February 17, 2004 Dr Who......I think you need to take a look at the set of documents I prepared last year for Forum members. 300+pages. Some very technical, others not so much. Forum member justintx16 (or is is justin16tx?) was kind & amibitious enough to scan it into a PDF file. It's available for download from his web site soundwise.org I think it will enlighten you on many of the issues you're attempting to address. After you understand whats in there, I'm sure you'll change your mind about some of the "theories" that are passed around on this Forum, and by 'audiophiles types' in general. And don't expect to absorb it all in a few weeks or months. It took me years to begin to fully understand most of it & I'm still not done! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artto Posted February 17, 2004 Share Posted February 17, 2004 ---------------- On 2/17/2004 8:56:11 PM TBrennan wrote: I think that different people are sensitive to different types of distortion and that people who don't like horns are probably sensitive to this form of distortion. Whereas horn lovers are probably sensitive to distortion caused by magnetic nonlinearities and IM distortion. ---------------- I couldn't agree more Tom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted February 19, 2004 Share Posted February 19, 2004 well I couldn't find the file, but i think i will send justin an email or something...i remember when he was working on this in the past and he was requesting a small donation for all the time and money he put into it. i could probably do some searching, but does any1 by chance have his email handy? anyways, i'll give it a good read or two and see if my opinion changes keep in mind i've never had the opportunity to listen to khorns so my opinions are based on my as subjective as possible interpretation of other's opinions. btw, i did check the specs on those speakers and the sensitivity was "only" 113db (poo). 130db was the max volume that we've ever cranked it to (we had some headroom, but it was so noisy and our meter was pegged that we decided to stop. and of course we were wearing lots of ear protection) and then another question...i mentioned that a direct radiator with the same sensitivity as a horn would sound better. i am under the impression that the reason the horn decreases modular distortion (which is generally more present in the DR) is because the diaphragm inside the horn moves less, but moves more air at the same time. Wouldn't a DR with the same sensitivty be moving the same amount as the diaphragm in the horn, but without the other "nonlinearity of the air in the throat of the horn caused by the high pressures there" (aka, the distortions introduced by horns)???????? If this logic is wack (which I don't think it is), then i'm going to go crawl in a hole Well it's 1am and i have to get up early tomorrow (ironically, im making a visit to Steve Walker's place in hopes of obtaining a job there...can't wait to hear all his toys) I've actually been enjoying this thread, but since I'm going to be gone for a bit, I just wanted to say sorry for my ramblings and I hope that everyone's toes that i've stepped on realizes that i've presented everything in hopes of learning something new or perhaps sharing something new for others. Heck, I'm only 19 and very far from being an expert, but i do know what i've heard so far and trying to share that isn't too bad i don't think. (ironically though i can say im an audio professional...pro means i get paid, right?) boink Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gerbache Posted February 19, 2004 Share Posted February 19, 2004 Part of the reason that horns reduce distortion is that they act as a sort of impedance match between the driver and the air. This is a huge part of the reason that they are so efficient. A direct radiator will have to move more than a horn driver in order to move the same amount of air because of the basic laws of physics. It may very well be that a direct radiator with the same efficiency as the klipschorn would have less distortion, but good luck in actually making one. I doubt you'll find it to be too easy of a job, in reality.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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