Tweeter opitions for heritage

[BackBurner]

What kind of success have you guys had with trying different drivers in your k-horns , scala's , belles .

There are tweeters out there worth twice there weight in gold , was wondering if any were a better fit than klipschs choices.

Some of these newer ribbon tweeters are crystal clear compared to 15 year old stuff.

[ZAKO]

Yes.... Anyone want to start?

[Q-Man]

JBL 2404H

[BackBurner]

Hmmmmmmm !!! I suppose these are some kind of hard earned trade secrets of something ???

Paul klipsch whole design has stood the test of time , that much we all know.

But by keeping his cabinets in tacked , there must be other drivers that fit the mid horn and most definatly other tweeter options.Not to mention bass drivers.

Just fishing for info from the pro's with this gear.

I'll go drop a line on a few other forums and see what i can dig up, yet stay somewhat within spec of the stock crossovers.

[ZAKO]

TAD 703

[D-MAN]

Backburner,

None of this will fit a stock Khorn cabinet, but I am running P-audio 4225 Mid horns fed by 2" Selenium 304 drivers and for the tweeters Eminence APT-50s on the wide horns with ALK crossovers.

Best I've heard so far, but I ain't heard Q-mans rig.

DM

[mike stehr]

I have the ST-324's, not bad for a cheap tweeter.

[John Warren]

Pictures below show the JBL2404H mounted on a stand that can be placed ontop of any of the Heritage systems. The filter is a 3rd order, 6kHz BW with a 4.3kHz series notch filter specifically for the 2404H. The bandwidth of this tweeter (3-21kHz) greatly exceeds the EV T35 (5-14kHz).

I've built a number of HF "cannons" like these over the years. This unit was the first protoype I built specifically for the Klipschorn.

Too many people "putz" around with network tweaks and forget that real problems lie in the limited bandwidth and power handling capability of the drivers Klipsch used in his designs.

[BackBurner]

Thanks John

Finally a non-conformer willing to express exactly what i've been thinking for years. I've done all the network tweeks , the money spent is just not worth the results in my opinion.

Tell me more !!

Is this a current production tweeter ? How about the mid horn, i've got a pair of 511b's kicking around in the garage someplace. Do you recommend useing the stock klipschorn driver or a replacement ?

How about a better tighter sounding bass driver for the lower bin , i've always found the stock unit very fat sounding. I like my bass tight and snappy

the volume is not an issue as long as its clean sounding .

Do you build those networks yourself ?

[John Warren]

On 3/6/2004 5:50:53 PM BackBurner wrote: <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

Thanks John <?xml:namespace prefix = v ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" />

>>>No problem

Finally a non-conformer willing to express exactly what i've been thinking for years. I've done all the network tweeks , the money spent is just not worth the results in my opinion.

Tell me more !! Is this a current production tweeter ?

>>Yes. The JBL 2404H is, and has been in production since the early 1990s. New, they are $560/pair. You can get them on the web at www.usspeaker.com. The crossover parts come to about $50, the stands are just labor. If your good with a tablesaw and have a few basic tools you can get a bigger bang for the buck going with this tweak than playing the crossover (yawn) "upgrade" game.

For Home Theater applications, or any application where intense, HF content needs to be reproduced with absolute clarity, these drivers are the answer. The transient behavior of this tweeter will make you jump out of your seat. A pal of mine has two pairs of Klipschorns running off a McIntosh Mc602 power amp. At his request, I built four of the these little devils, one for each unit. The sound improvement was so significant that his wife actually called me to thank me for making them!

How about the mid horn, i've got a pair of 511b's kicking around in the garage someplace. Do you recommend useing the stock klipschorn driver or a replacement ?

>>IMO, the Klipsch mid horn and driver are not very good. I dont think the 511 is much better. Opinions vary, but I'd leave it in the garage. If your into horn mids, the Altec 311 with the 290-16L compression driver is a good choice. I recently did a crossover for Q-man with this horn and it sounded quite good. Unfortunately, both are no longer in production. High efficiency midrange direct rdiators in paired arrays are another way to tackle the efficiency-bandwith problem. More work but the end result can be very good. JBL and McCauley make some nice cone midranges that can be integrated with a bass horn without the need to bi-amp.

How about a better tighter sounding bass driver for the lower bin , i've always found the stock unit very fat sounding. I like my bass tight and snappy the volume is not an issue as long as its clean sounding.

>>>I could discuss the downsides of a folded bass horns for hours but the bottom line is that the efficiency is hard to match when compared to direct radiators. Yes, I think you can get bass with better transient response using direct radiators but to do it at the same SPLs requires multiple 18 drivers each in refrigerator sized enclosure.

Do you build those networks yourself ?

>>Yes. I designed the network years ago. I recently wrote an article for Audioxpress (old Speakerbuilder) magazine detailing how to build this network for integrating the JBL 2404H into the Klipschorn. It should be out in the April or May issue. The schematic and some of the reasoning behind the design will be found in the article. The Barnes & Noble Superstores used to carry the magazine. I will post the schematic here after the article is published.

[BackBurner]

JOHN: Thank you very much for taking the time to respond . I for one like to come here to learn , that 2 channel forum up there is getting stupid'er by the day .

I'm likly not so bright ? don't think stupid'er is even a word

I have 1 copy of audioxpress and have read it 10 times cover to cover , one of the olny decent ones left . I can't seem to find it anymore ( last copy i got at chapters ) was thinking about subscribing to it.

Your the type of help i've been looking for , hope you don't mine if i bend your ear in the future .

I'd also like to hear from Q-man about his thoughts .

[Deang]

As usual, good stuff John.

So, in your opinion, what do you tackle first the get the highest performance for the dollar -- the tweeter, or the midhorn? I think the current Klipschorn sounds pretty darn good. Somehow, Klipsch got the squawker to quit emitting the sound of frying bacon.

Not sure what I think about the comments regarding tweeking or upgrading the parts in the crossover. My experience with the RF-7 is that it is worth it. I thought enough about the improvement to offer it to others. However, I have no experience with Heritage.

[Q-Man]

BackBurner,

There isn't mush more for me to say. If you havn't read my most over the last couple of years then do a search under Odd and Mods for author named Q-Man. There are three or four of my most recent post with titles starting with Altec, JBL, 290, 311, and maybe K-Horn mod. if you can't find them then let me know, I'll pull them up again. This is the combo that finally pleases my ears. Over the last few years I've had one room in my home dedicated to this project. I've tried different horns drivers and networks and the 311-90 horn and 290-16K & 16L drivers are the clear winners. You can find even older post that I discussed the 511, 805-B, and the Cobre Flex horn. Out of those three I prefer the Cobre flex. You need a 300Hz driver and horn, don't waste your time with these 500Hz horns and drivers. You will be fooled at first by their somewhat cleaner sound, but after carefull comparing and measuring thay are too far down at 400 Hz, There the K-400 sounds better.

Now about the JBL 2404H tweeter. What can I say, JW already told you about his mod. All I can say is that I never thought that I was a tweeter person untill I heard this one. It strikes like lighting. Everyone who I let A/B my mod with a stock Klipschorn has something to say about the tweeter.

My 290,311,2404H mod was sounding much better then my stock Klipschorns when I was using a slightley modified Klipsch AA designed network. Then I shipped JW a 290 driver and 311 horn so he could design a network for these and the JBL tweeter. I really didn't expect much of a change, I was plesently surprised when I got the networks and did an A/B with my already modified K-Horns. The network brought immediate smiles to my son and my face when he helped me A/B them.

I think DJK heard this horn or maybe it was just the driver and he told me that when you hear a sax thru it you have to wipe the spit off of your face.

I don't think you can do much of anything to the bass horn, but a higher quality network does help the bass sound cleaner, do to second order harmonics. You really won't find a better driver then the K-33. I did build a University Classic bass horn and it sounds so real that it makes you weak in the knees. Yes to my ears it is cleaner and more dynamic then the Klipschorn, but it cuts off at around 60Hz. I should try it again some day with my modified or new Klipschorn top. It to requires a 250 to 300 Hz mid horn.

JW and I have a couple of ideas up are sleeves , but I don't want to get into that.

Dean,

What can I tell you? I too loved my Klipschorns and LaScalas. I couldn't be convinced that there was something better sounding. I never would have started experimenting with these if it wasn't for the fact that I had three pairs of LaScalas and two pairs of Klipschorns already. Then building the University Classic opened my eyes, and guess who sent me the plans for that speaker?

Then there was the Jenson Imperial build that also taught me

something.

The Klipschorn can be taken to a new level, and I can understand that no one will believe this untill they can A/B them with mine or JW's mod. It's not fair, he got to listen to mine and I never heard his.

[formica]

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On 3/6/2004 9:56:27 PM John Warren wrote:

>>IMO, the Klipsch mid horn and driver are not very good. I dont think the 511 is much better. Opinions vary, but I'd leave it in the garage. If your into horn mids, the Altec 311 with the 290-16L compression driver is a good choice. I recently did a crossover for Q-man with this horn and it sounded quite good. Unfortunately, both are no longer in production. High efficiency midrange direct rdiators in paired arrays are another way to tackle the efficiency-bandwith problem. More work but the end result can be very good. JBL and McCauley make some nice cone midranges that can be integrated with a bass horn without the need to bi-amp.

>>>I could discuss the downsides of a folded bass horns for hours but the bottom line is that the efficiency is hard to match when compared to direct radiators. Yes, I think you can get bass with better transient response using direct radiators but to do it at the same SPLs requires multiple 18 drivers each in refrigerator sized enclosure.

----------------

You have always been quite direct about your opinions, but as those who frequently read your posts know, it is always a well thought out opinion based on knowledge. But, do you actually use modified k-horns? If so Im just wondering which of its compromises suited your listening?

Not sure if it was JohnW, Q-Man or DJK which posted about a JBL Pro tent sale speaker which sounded pretty good right out of the box just wondering which model it was? Just gathering info to plan my eventual main speaker upgrade (ummm replacement

Thanks...

Rob

[mafuta]

I have been battling with this for along time.There seems to be a pattern to it:

First you get a better tweeter (JBL 2404-truly stunning).But then after awhile you start craving this same clarity in the midrange.First you get a mid horn.This can be anything from a wooden piece of art (IWATA in my case)to a toilet bowl.Now needing a 2" driver.Invariably you choose something really smart (TAD 4001,JBL 2441 or if you really have it badly ALE or GOTO).Fortunately I'm still stuck here.Then you find a) the midrange won't reach down to the Bass horn the K horn bass starts sounding murky and c)Your wife looks at you funny.

Then you get a 15"JBL or Altec woofer and put it in a large box.Now you find that a) You leave the Klipsch forums and sell your Khorns to an idiot who can't stop smiling and shaking your hand. You have your new creation sprayed pearl white and proudly shows it on the Lansing forum c)You start posting furiously on Audio Asylum where there are some really clued up people.Problem is you think you are one of them.d) You hardly listen to music anymore.

Now Your postings to AA start getting nasty and eventually obnoxious.AA bans you.You start hanging out with the kids at the pro music shop.The sound at the bar sounds real nice and you spend more time there.You wife leaves you.

What the hell ,you sell your Marantz 9s and get some Crest 1 megawatt jobs.You peroxide your hair.You don't even get upset when the hairdresser asks if you want only one or both your hairs bleached.

Your wife divorces you and both your pale hair fell out on the same day.You give your stuff away.You now move into a apartment and buy yourself a Harman Kardon receiver and some Heresys.You join the Klipsch forums where your input is really appreciated.

Problem is :All your posts start wit:"When I had Klipschorns"

THIS IS PURELY FICTIONAL AND NOT INTENDED TO HARM ANYONE.PLEASE FORGIVE ME IF I OFFENDED ANYONE!

Mafuta

[Deang]

rotflol, what a great post -- I'm still laughing! When Brennan sees it, he's going fall off his couch.

[BackBurner]

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On 3/7/2004 4:36:06 PM DeanG wrote:

rotflol, what a great post -- I'm still laughing! When Brennan sees it, he's going fall off his couch.

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Ya , i'm sure it will make his last 2 hairs fall out .

[BackBurner]

Whats the diference between the 291-16k and the 290-16k ?

[djk]

A 290 is 300hz~7Khz, a 291 is 500hz~13Khz.

If you reduce the power handling requirements a 291 will go to 300hz.

[ttaylor]

Quite a bit of useful information for future upgrading. One question though, in regards to the mid horn. For a La Scala, which of the current JBL horns/CD combos would be the best choice to use with the JBL HF driver? If I do upgrade, Id like to use current production drivers rather than scrounging vintage stuff on Ebay. With a higher cut-off than the Khorn, there must be more options.

taylor