Audible Nectar Posted April 19, 2005 Share Posted April 19, 2005 OK, I got the Valve Arts in, and spent a good 6 hours listening to these in the MC30's. Let's start with the obvious: Bass. Lots of Bass. Initially, I was thinking "OK, I like this" on the first few tracks, but it got tiring in pretty short order. The best way to describe it was the way Steve Hoffman described his KT66 tubes with MC30's on his website: "like someone pushed the loudness button". In my extensive reading on the MC30's and KT66, he was the only one I found who had such negative comments, as most stated that the bass of the KT66 is deeper, tighter, and usually an improvement in that regard vs. the 6L6GC. It was deeper, but tighter is debateable - and definitely "thick/heavy" sounding. OK, that's the bass story - what about the rest? Midrange: One aspect of the Valve Arts that seemed a bit of an improvement or change was the midrange "bark" or "grab" on guitar solos. Eddie Van Halen's "brown sound" is quite good, allowing the listener to really "feel" the texture of the notes and Eddie's intentional distortion. Now I know why the guitar folks like these. But the rest of the midrange is fairly nondescript. Solid state sounding, and a loss of midrange "life" I had before. Sibilance on vocals comes to the fore.....and when I was spinning the B52's "Topaz" (nice female and male vocal combo with guitar mixed in - a good midrange test), my wife walks in and says "what did you DO in here"? Even she noticed the step down in overall sound, imaging, and life - and she hadn't even seen the tube change yet. She picked this out in 5 seconds. Treble: I swear I am not getting anything out of these tubes above 12Khz. NO TREBLE EXTENSION. It's like the tweeters took a vacation. I occasionally would place my ears against the cabinets on both sides to be sure they were still working - and they were - but they most definitely have time on easy street. In my book, these were a DEFINITE step down from the RCA 6L6GC in the MC30's. While the bass is a bit "loose" in the RCA's, it doesn't add bass artificially (which the Valve Arts seem to do), and the RCA's midrange is very lively - where we Klipschers live. So, two questions: 1. Given that the Valve Art KT66 tubes are new, would "break-in" improve these items somewhat? I wonder about this - but it seems the tubes would have much to change if positive benefits from "break-in" were to occur to my liking. 2. I tried these tubes to get a taste of the KT66 "school" of tubes without having to splurge on GEC's. Was I nutz expecting these to be any kind of reasonable facsimile of the GEC KT66? If I don't like the Valve Arts, should I give up on KT66 entirely, or might the GEC version address some of these issues? Things that make ya go hmmmmmmm...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allan Songer Posted April 19, 2005 Share Posted April 19, 2005 Comparing the Chinese KT-66 with a REAL GEC KT-66 is akin to comparing a bottle of Kendall Jackson Chardonnay with a bottle of Corton-Charlemange. Sure, both are made from Chardonnay grapes, but the result is QUITE different. I am not surprised in the LEAST that your RCA blackplates sound better than the Chinese KT-66. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted April 19, 2005 Share Posted April 19, 2005 Allan, I have one question for you........have you ever even heard the Valve Art KT66 in rescent years ? I bet not. Tube swapping is person preference what one person hears or percieves could be completely different then the next guy. Jordan took the GEC/ Valve Art challenge with his Scott 296 and was pretty depressed with the extra money he spent on the GEC just to have one fail. Just like DFlip spending good hard earned money on 350B's for his MC30 just to have 2 near completley dead 6 months later. With NOS variants of these obscure tubes dwindleling the gamble of buying them to me is to large at the current pricing. The MC30 is not designed for a KT66 so making blanket judgements on the tube is skewed. I bet the GEC would have about the same effect in the amplifier in question. Audible Nectar, Yes let the tubes break in I have found it takes at least 100 hours for brand new tubes to settle in and electrically stablelize this is not by ear or opinion this is with test equipement. If you still don't like them I'll buy them they sound great in my amps. Craig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Number 9 Posted April 19, 2005 Share Posted April 19, 2005 This is such a surprising result given the good feedback the Va KT66 has been getting elsewhere. That they are Chinese, is irrelevant, and displays a pre-conceived bias. Yes there are some crap Chinese toobs out there, but so are there from NOS too. For those that do not know the history of the Valve Art KT66, they shipped the exact same equipment to China that had been previously used by GEC in manufacturing the KT66 in the UK. So great lenghts were taken to try to replicate the original magic of the tube. Valve Art also does a post test to ensure they meet spec and chrerry picks the best. So there certainly was a serious attempt on the manufacturing side to produce a current-day product befitting the original's reputation. I'm not suggesting anything otherwise to what Audible has heard or experienced, but more than anything, I'm just puzzled at the result. But so it is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allan Songer Posted April 19, 2005 Share Posted April 19, 2005 OK. You've got me. I haven't heard any recent production Chinese KT-66--I was basing my comments on stuff I heard at LEAST 3-4 years ago. The MC-30 was DESIGNED around the 1614 output tube, but does that mean that any OTHER output tube is "wrong?" I have used GEC KT-66 for HUNDREDS and HUNDREDS of hours in my MC-30s. They sounded so much better to me than the RCAs it wasn't even close. BUT THEN YOU HAVE TO UNDERSTAND THAT I LISTEN TO ALMOST 100% acoustic jazz and 90% of that on vinyl. For me the bass was tighter and faster and the midrange just GLORIOUS. I have NO IDEA if the KT-66 sounds good in the MC-30 when playing rock and roll, and it seems that this it what was playing when the evaluation was made. Craig--do you have an extra quad of VA KT-66 on hand? I'd be happy to evaluate them for you if you want to lend me a set--might be interesting . . . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted April 19, 2005 Share Posted April 19, 2005 Allan, No I don't have any at this time that is why I told Ben and Audible to go ahead a try them and I would take them off there hands if they didn't care for them. But either way I will be getting some one way or the other and would be happy to send them to you and see what you think first hand. These off shore tubes have come along way in the last few years. I still prefer NOS small signal tubes by a slight margin but with output tubes I think there hitting the nail on the head in China and Russia. If Audible Nectar wants to sell me his set since he doesn't care for them I'll pay him and he can foward them to you to try. Craig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ben. Posted April 19, 2005 Author Share Posted April 19, 2005 Send em over and I'll run em in my Ampeg for a rehearsal. That'll break em in! My EH are really giving up the ghost in it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garymd Posted April 19, 2005 Share Posted April 19, 2005 I've ONLY had Valve Arts in my MkIIIs since Craig sent them to me. They sound so good I've never had any reason to swap. Still, I'm curious. I've been offered a quad of 350Bs to audition..................... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Auwen Posted April 19, 2005 Share Posted April 19, 2005 Allan, email me your address and I'll send you the set I just received. I would be interested in your evaluation of them in a pair of MC30s.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tillmbil Posted April 19, 2005 Share Posted April 19, 2005 Yes, please include me in the outcome. I have a set of MarkIV's coming back from Craig that need some good tubes. Seems the EL34's they came with are scrap. No wonder I immediately had a run away tube. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audible Nectar Posted April 20, 2005 Share Posted April 20, 2005 Well, there has been a delay in the proceedings. A minor static/soft popping has shown up in one of my MC30's. After discussing this with Terry, we have eliminated the pre, speakers, line level and speaker cables, and tubes as culprits. It appears that this will be on it's way to Terry's for service, barring any other possibilities we can eliminate via phone. Another point on the Valve Arts, not related to sonics: Maybe the manufacturer of these tubes should consider using the GEC tooling for the TUBE PINS too. These tube pins could just as easily be cut off with a hacksaw - no "rounding" of the pins whatsoever. I used my wife's fingernail file gently to remove some "hanging metal edges" from the pin tip rims before using them. Use great care and patience when installing these - they do not just "drop and slide" in like the RCA's do. If Valve Art wants to sell these tubes to folks using vintage amps with KT66's, they need to take care of these kind of issues. I assume their primary customers are audiophiles and musicians who want a quality product...and as such, Valve Art's factory needs to do better here! The tube pins instantly give me cause to pause, and not bother reinstalling them in the 30's......I worry about the tube sockets when installing these. As for musical material used during the trial, it was "all over the map". Rock and Roll did best on these....but when moving to vocals and instrumentals/easier listening material, these really go to squat. That's when my wife really noticed the changes. Granted, I am extrapolating here, but given Allan's musical tastes, I thought these tubes would be better in the jazz/horns/instrumental/vocal department than they show - albeit not GEC KT66. The MAIN reason I tried the KT66 was the looser bass of the RCA, and Allan's comments on the KT66 - if I could find a 6L6GC (or any compatible tube) with the mids and treble of the RCA and better bass, I would stay with that. The exception is the 350B, which are made, as Terry says, of "unobtainium".....and are thus not on the radar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allan Songer Posted April 20, 2005 Share Posted April 20, 2005 If you want to hear some REAL KT-66 without shelling out the cash, I will LEND you a NOS quad if you pay for shipping both ways with insurance. Keep them for a month or so and then if you want to buy a quad you can decide if they're worth the money you'll have to pay get them. Let me know when your MC30s are up to snuff and I'll send them out. I'd be interested to hear your comments. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audible Nectar Posted April 20, 2005 Share Posted April 20, 2005 You've got Email/PM coming your way, Allan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted April 20, 2005 Share Posted April 20, 2005 Yup the old tube pin problem! All modern tubes coming out of China and Russia have this problem. What makes it even worse is all these manufacturers NOS or modern didn't adhere to the same diameter on the tube pins. But the fix is very simple and should be done if your rolling tube anyway. Retension the tube sockets with a simple dental pic like tool. Craig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Auwen Posted April 20, 2005 Share Posted April 20, 2005 Though I don't have the 'listening' background that some of you have, I will try the Valve Arts in my MC30s to see how they sound to me and will report, as best I can, on what I hear. The tubes I am using now are GENELEX KT66 Gold Lions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DRBILL Posted April 20, 2005 Share Posted April 20, 2005 OK. Here goes. MY favorite 6L6 is a 6BG6-GA with Michael Marks' base adaptor (vacuumtubes.com). The "guts" are identical to a 6L6-GC (35W plate dis.) except base wiring and a plate cap. Why the trouble? $6 for NOS! And they sound great. I use them almost exclusively in Williamson rebuilds. DR BILL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted April 20, 2005 Share Posted April 20, 2005 DR Bill, Where did you find information that this tube had 35 watts of plate dissapation ? I looked here and its 20 watts more like a regular 6L6 http://hereford.ampr.org/cgi-bin/tube?tube=6BG6GA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DRBILL Posted April 20, 2005 Share Posted April 20, 2005 ---------------- On 4/20/2005 12:56:46 PM NOSValves wrote: Where did you find information that this tube had 35 watts of plate dissapation ? _____ Check Mike's home page at the very bottom (vacuumtubes.com) He includes that information. DR BILL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted April 20, 2005 Share Posted April 20, 2005 Cool think I'll give a set a try! Craig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DRBILL Posted April 20, 2005 Share Posted April 20, 2005 Craig, At $6, what's to lose?! If you don't know Michael, you need to. Give him a call; mention my name. This guy is a WEALTH of information. BILL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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