neo33 Posted March 13, 2004 Share Posted March 13, 2004 A few nights ago I played some symphonies on my 3.5W SET monos through the Cornwalls at 95dB. It was so loud and realistic that my next door neighbors thought that there is an entire ochestra rehearshing at my house. When I told them about the amps they couldn't believe their ears and some of them spent the next three nights at my house. Maybe I should start charging admission price. Talk about the music wonder of SET amps! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted March 13, 2004 Share Posted March 13, 2004 flame bait anyone ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audio Flynn Posted March 13, 2004 Share Posted March 13, 2004 Do you live in an attached condo or apartment? Maybe the windows were open; we do not have them open in Michigan yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted March 13, 2004 Share Posted March 13, 2004 "...some of them spent the next three nights at my house..." Add this one to the list of reasons not to buy a SET amp. Hang with me a minute. We had a break in the weather over here last week, and I managed to get one set of my Original Advents refinished. This first set had cost no object parts in the crossover, and I was surprised to find they didn't sound very good. Of course, these crossovers were built last summer, and none of the parts were burned in. There was something in sound however that made me believe it didn't have much to do with "break-in". After an hour of listening, I had decided I was going rip out the crossovers and rebuild them using what Kloss used -- electrolytics, but with the addition of a bypass cap on the tweeter. I came home from work the next day, and decided I would first give them a proper run-in before passing total judgment on the Thetas in this speaker. Deciding I wanted a little more bass reinforcement, and a true nearfield setting -- I took the Advents off the stands in front of the Klipschorns, and sat them on the floor about 1/2 the distance between my Klipschorns and my chair. I moved the chair and sat on the floor in front of the Advents (about 4 feet) -- and promptly unloaded everything the QUADs had into them. This placement, combined with the volume -- was impressive. Still, there was still that closed in, somewhat constricted sound I heard before -- a characterisic I've never heard from the Old Advent. I left the room, with the Advents "blaring", and went down into the garage to start on the 2nd pair. No one home, so "Disturbed" play on repeat for 3 hours. Coming back into the house, I decided it was time to give it rest, and went upstairs to shut things down. Half way up the stairs I realized the sound was "different" than it was when I had went down the stairs earlier. Walking into the room, it was clearly apparent that they were no longer "blaring" -- and now producing an effortless, open sound. I turned the QUADs down, moved the Advents back onto the stands in front of Klipschorns, put my chair back -- and settled in for some listening. This experience forever removed any lingering doubts regarding "cap conditioning" or break-in. It's real, demonstratable -- and anyone who can't hear the phenomena -- without question has hearing problems. Film and foils have a Jekyll and Hyde quality. Without conditioning, or burned in -- they sound very mediocre, and worse than mylars or electrolytics. The caps were easy to burn in with a set of Advents -- which are only 86db/w. I could easily dump the whole of what the QUADs are capable of with these speakers -- and after a now 12 hours of heavy listening -- things sound very good regardless of volume level. So, now we are to this issue of volume and power again. The Advents maintain a "clean" sound with the volume control taken all of the way to the top and beyond. At about 1 o'clock, I can hear the amp and speakers "pinching up". Clearly the upper limit of what the QUADs have (40 watts), and this translates to peaks of just over a 100db with the SPL meter. It is at this point that I run out of "headroom" If I back off to 12 o'clock -- it sounds extremely good, and there is no evidence of clipping. These peaks just touch the 100db mark. Not much of a difference on the meter between the two -- but a big difference in sound. By contrast, the Klipschorns bring in these volume levels with the attenuator just passing the 9 o'clock position. To get an additional 10db on the meter -- I have to go to 12 on the dial. This translates to 10x the power. So, it would appear that IN MY ROOM -- my Klipschorns can produce just over 100db at the listening position with 4 watts. Of course, since I'm using 40 watt amps -- this "4 watts" has loads of power behind it in the form of headroom for dynamic peaks. 100db is pretty damn loud to me, and I can easily see 3.5 watts doing a clean 95 db or so with my Klipschorns. However, the Cornwall is NOT a Klipschorn, and unless you are using a SET amp built by the gods -- you're definitely into some compression or clipping above 90db. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike stehr Posted March 13, 2004 Share Posted March 13, 2004 "you're definitely into some compression or clipping above 90db." Maybe so. But it's a nice clipping. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minn_male42 Posted March 13, 2004 Share Posted March 13, 2004 ---------------- On 3/13/2004 2:12:25 PM mike stehr wrote: "you're definitely into some compression or clipping above 90db." Maybe so. But it's a nice clipping. ---------------- yeah.... after all who really wants to hear what the particular artist/group/orchestra really sounded like when they recorded the music..... esp. since when my low power SET amp sounds so nice when it clips..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted March 13, 2004 Share Posted March 13, 2004 That's probably true Mike. I didn't mean the post to sound derogatory towards SET, in fact, I meant it in the total opposite way. A clean 90db or so is perfect for most "heavy" listening, and I showed that 3.5 watts can easily do it with Cornwalls. Russ -- the idea is to make the sound of my system enjoyable to my ears. If some coloration is needed to do this, then so be it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minn_male42 Posted March 13, 2004 Share Posted March 13, 2004 dean, i was just referring to the "clipping" comment..... tube amps sound fantastic..... i went with a different option because of the demands that i put on my system.... i want those peaks to be played correctly with no clipping.... esp since this thread is "symphonies and SET"..... if you don't turn them up too much, tube amps can be awesome!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike stehr Posted March 14, 2004 Share Posted March 14, 2004 Russ Says..... tube amps sound fantastic..... i went with a different option because of the demands that i put on my system.... i want those peaks to be played correctly with no clipping.... ******Let's see, you had some Dynaco integrated 6BQ5 push-pull amp. It was a vintage amp and more than likely needed some work. If I recall, it started to get hummy and noisy. And instead of dicking around trying to either fix the amplifier yourself, or have someone get the thing up to snuff, you went ahead and ditched it and picked up the Carver digital amp. I understand your point. I would have done the same thing, if I didn't mess around with tube circuits as a hobby. esp since this thread is "symphonies and SET"..... ******Most amps struggle on Classical, yeah maybe more so with SET. Room size and speaker ratings play a part there. Doesn't really matter what amplifier topology. if you don't turn them up too much, tube amps can be awesome!! ******Yup. But any amp will clip if you crank it up too hard. I'm pretty sure the Carver digital amp will clip, you can't deny that. And I'm sure when it does clip, it doesn't sound very good does it? I'm in a smallish room with a SET amp. For one thing, there is no need to crank it. It does just fine at the level it works at. When I start pushing the amp, the clipping isn't noticed as much. It's a nice clipping like I posted. I've had a couple of friends tell me to crank the amp to see if they would detect the distortion, they hardly even notice. Of course you push it too hard, it pinches up and sounds bad. All amps do it, no matter what topology. Push-Pull amps will put out more Third harmonic distortion (WHEN PUSHED OF COURSE) than a single-ended triode amp. (I'm not slamming PP, no no!) Third harmonic distortion is more harsh on the ears than second harmonic distortion. Which is what SET amps pump out most of as far as distortion, and will sound bad when pushed too hard. If you are happy with the Carver digital amps, that's cool. If you like it, then thats all that matters. But if get the chance to hear a nice SET amp, do it. You get a understanding and what I'm trying to explain. Dean understands. Hell, I'm pretty sure I'm going to be building a dirty ol' push-pull pentode amp down the road. I gotta bang my head too. All amps will clip, nonetheless. I like my SET amp. And put the big ol' Pepsi challenge that no one is going to better this amp on a $500 budget. But I'm sure the Carver digital amp sounds awesome. IMO, JMHO, WTFDIK, etc...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tubelover Posted March 14, 2004 Share Posted March 14, 2004 ---------------- On 3/13/2004 7:02:02 AM neo33 wrote: A few nights ago I played some symphonies on my 3.5W SET monos through the Cornwalls at 95dB. It was so loud and realistic that my next door neighbors thought that there is an entire ochestra rehearshing at my house. When I told them about the amps they couldn't believe their ears and some of them spent the next three nights at my house. Maybe I should start charging admission price. Talk about the music wonder of SET amps! ---------------- Sure. Whatever you say Neo. lmfao. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minn_male42 Posted March 14, 2004 Share Posted March 14, 2004 just trying to politely explain myself..... and i forgot i was on the "2-channel forum" where reasonable discussion is rare and there is more flame than in california during the dry season..... (unless you want to sit around and praise each other's tube amps).... you like your amp in your application...... cool i like my amp in my application...... but.....anytime (and everytime) anyone even suggests something different than a tube amp or points out a weakness in a tube amp, the good old defensive mechanisms jump into place and all the old cliches start flying...... is there so much insecurity in the owners of tube amps that they have to fly off the handle and can't even have a rational conversation????..... it just happened over on the thread concerning leaving tube amps on all the time..... 5 pages of mostly insults and attacks because someone questioned one of the "good old boys" opinions.... heck....in this thread, i even went out of my way to not even say what kind of amp i was referring to...... but good old mike must keep a file on all possible threats to the "tube kingdom"..... notice how he read back my history..... i give up..... enjoy your "2 channel forum"..... i won't be back..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike stehr Posted March 14, 2004 Share Posted March 14, 2004 I didn't mean to get ya all fired up, Russ. I didn't slam your Carver amp, I'd like to one hear myself. What's the truth hurt? Isn't that how it went? Your Dynaco got noisy. So you gave it up and got a Carver amp. Someone needs some bush....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TBrennan Posted March 14, 2004 Share Posted March 14, 2004 Minn---Stick around. I find your take refreshing. I too am kinda fed-up with this New Orthodoxy of tubes and horns, especially when it comes from fellas who got their first real horns about a year ago. Some of the absolute worst amps I've heard were tubes and I'm talking used with horns too. That Jeff Korneff SET sounds very, ah, average but it's not obnoxious. I was underwhelmed by some Berning SETs (their owner is now using a gainclone) and an AudioNote 300B SET was the third worst amp I ever heard; the 2 worse amps being a certain, ahh, never mind, I'll be prudent; and the other a Peavey SS prosound amp. Oh yeah, I forgot a Knight tube amp I had years ago, that was real bad. You know I heard lots of different tube amps in one of my own systems (the Altec 605 based one) when I hosted Chicago Horn Club meetings. And the little ASL tube integrated normally in the rig sounded better than several big-buck tube amps that were used; more than one fella pulled his amps out with a long face. Of course I'm back with tubes myself for now but I'm not religious about it; they come and go. Besides, the tube job I'm using is a Fisher, it's quality may have more to do with it's being Fisher than being tube. Maybe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike stehr Posted March 14, 2004 Share Posted March 14, 2004 Is Kurt still going to hook you up with some gainclones? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TBrennan Posted March 14, 2004 Share Posted March 14, 2004 Mike---Yeah, one of these days, he's a pretty busy fella. Now he's tri-amping his 3-way JBL Pro horns with a 6-channel gainclone he built. Sounds superb. The best midrange I ever heard except for my old A5s. (sigh) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike stehr Posted March 14, 2004 Share Posted March 14, 2004 I need to start playing with SS power supply circuits. I may as well try a gainclone. One of these days..... I'm open-minded to different amp circuits, I want to be...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jt1stcav Posted March 14, 2004 Share Posted March 14, 2004 Back to the original topic (no disrespect, gentlemen), I hope I can enjoy my classical orchestral and organ CDs with my soon-to-arrive 8 WPC BEZ 300B SET. My current SS Mac MC250 (with its conservatively rated 50 WPC) has never run out of steam with my 90 to 100dB + levels through my Cornwalls, but I know my BEZ won't have the added headroom that my McIntosh has...it may get me into trouble, though, especially with large pipe organ passages at "grande tutti" and 32' Contra Bassoons pumping the airwaves with 16 cycle beats! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jt1stcav Posted March 14, 2004 Share Posted March 14, 2004 Neo, I don't recall what model Cornwalls you own...the 98.5dB oldies like mine, or the newer Cornwall IIs with the higher efficiency rating? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted March 14, 2004 Share Posted March 14, 2004 "I too am kinda fed-up with this New Orthodoxy of tubes and horns..." "New"? I don't know about that, especially since most of PK's speakers were all voiced with tube amps 50 years ago -- though newer Klipsch are voiced with solid state (and most of you would be very surprised at what they use). "...especially when it comes from fellas who got their first real horns about a year ago." Well, since you don't consider the RF-7s to be "real" horns -- I guess I qualify in your description. Still, I had some very decent solid state in here with my RF-7s, and nothing I heard sounded as musical or satisfying as any of the tube amps. Big, bombastic, and aggressive can be fun -- but after about 20 minutes you're ready to watch TV. I don't like my speakers shouting and spitting on me. SET amps are next on my list, but I won't give up the QUADs to try it -- I have to save. So, it may be a little while. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrot Posted March 14, 2004 Share Posted March 14, 2004 ---------------- On 3/14/2004 11:00:48 AM DeanG wrote: though newer Klipsch are voiced with solid state (and most of you would be very surprised at what they use). ---------------- Would it be Crown? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.