Nice Article on the Pros of Black CR-Rs

[jazman]

Tim,

Ditto from me on this. I've atually heard them. What is TBrennan using as his base for comment?

Klipsch out.

[maxg]

Well parts one and two are completed. I have downloaded the exact audio copy software and found some black CD-R's (Intenso - any good?).

Daughter permitting tonight I will rip an existing CD to both black and normal CD's and report back on a comparison of the 3.

Anyone happen to know if CDRW is better or worse than normal CDR? I have bunches of those and 2 of my CD players read them quite happily (saves wasting disks - I am so environmentally friendly (cheap))

[No Disc]

Max,

I would not use thd CD-RW discs. Use CD-Rs. If you burn according to the guidelines, you should not be making any coasters. Besides, CD-RWs are more expensive discs.

[White01L]

This is starting to sound like a "wires" kind of thing. Sure be interesting reading when you all do your comaprisons. I always thought electrons were electrons, zeroes and ones were zeroes and ones...

but I also remember being taught in the 60's and 70's that we would run out of petroleum before 2000 and we would all be driving around in flying cars.

[maxg]

Well I got to play last night as follows:

Experiment:

2 fold - Primarily to see whether there is an audible difference / improvement in using a black CDR as against a normal silver CDR in creating recordings on the computer.

Secondly to see if it is possible to create a "better than original copy" on this hardware.

Methodology:

Creation

Using my portable computer with its built in CD/DVD recorder and the Exact Copy software recommended in the article I burned the CD - Dire Straits, Money for nothing in its entirety to WAV files on the hard disk. These wav files were then used to create both CDR's, one black and one normal.

The CDRs in question were:

1. Intenso 700 Mb Black Edition 1x-48x

2. Verbatim Datalife 48x compatible

Creation was done at the minimum speed available (4 X) with the automated version of the process chosen (the computer decides what to do in background with minimal input from me - an option on installation I chose)

Playback

All comparisons were made with using my Marrantz CD6000 CD player. This was chosen as its time to load a CD is significantly smaller than my CD/DVD combo player although I regard its playback quality as inferior. This would minimize the time between playback of disks and therefore reliance on my audio memory. Typical time to switch between one disk and another and return to my listening position and start listening again is around 25 seconds.

Volume levels were kept constant for the duration of testing.

During the testing process I kept a sound meter running that hold the maximum sound level achieved whilst monitoring the levels on an ongoing basis. This was merely to ascertain that none of the disks were recorded at a higher volume which would make quality assessments more difficult.

A single track was selected for playback throughout - Private Investigations. This was chosen as I know it very well on CD and it contains a wide range of music and sound levels within it.

After completion of the first phase of testing I then repeated the tests using both CD players and switching between them on the fly. This was merely to check whether one or other of the recordings suited one or other of the players better.

Issues and Problems

The primary problem is that audio testing did not start until 11:30 and volumes had to be kept very muted (highest peak value obtained was 71 dB). This may have served to mask differences that could become more apparent at higher volumes. That test will have to be done another time.

My audio memory is not all that great. The time to switch from one disk to another is really on the borderline of my capabilities.

Results

There are no apparent volume differences in the recordings so any change in quality should be purely that.

Assessment is based, therefore, on an entirely subjective basis as follows:

1. Quality of sound.

2. Apparent depth and width of soundstage.

3. Stability of soundstage (movement within it during playback).

In the light of the above it is my opinion that there is a slight Sonic improvement in playback of a black CD as opposed to a silver CD. Due to the limitations of testing this is only realy apparent for the first few seconds of any music played. the ear appears to acustom itself to the new music very quickly.

Each time I replaced the silver disk with the black disk there was a shock improvement apparent - the wow factor, that quickly dissolved into a not sure as the above cut in.

Equally as surprising for me - the recordings were more different from the original than from each other. Here it is difficult to say which is better. The original CD seems to me to be slighlty softer (and more musical possibly) but with less impact. I think that for the subject matter (Rock music) this means that there is an improvement in the sound, but I would like to test out a classical piece before expressing a definitive preference.

Yet another surprise is this: There is no discernable change in the soundstaging and depth of any of the 3 CD's under test. As volume and soundstaging appear constant one wonders what on earth could be changing, however, the first impression time and again was that the black CD was the better.

(as a quick addendum to the results I have just tried a colleague in the office using my computer and Creative speakers comparing the playback of the 2 copies. With no clues from me she chose the black one as being the better - there is something here.)

Having concluded that there is indeed a difference I performed a final test as follows:

Black CD in the Marantz, silver CD in the CD/DVD player, start both at the same time (near as I can manage) and switch back and forth between the 2 inputs. then repeat and reverse the disks (silver in Marantz, black in CD/DVD).

The result of that test is unequivocal in my mind. whatever differences between the disks the difference between the players is the greater. In other words the CD/DVD player consistently outplayed the Marantz on either disk.

Conclusions

There is a slight difference between Silver and Black disks in recording quality that appears to favour the black. This is not sufficient to mask inferior playback equipment. Higher volumes and better equipment may make this difference more apparent,. but, with even rather poor playback equipment (Computer and computer speakers) the difference is obvious enough even to the uninitiated.

Black CD's are still no match for vinyl on my setup. At the end of all testing I put on the same album on vinyl and it was a dramatic improvement - not that I am biased in any way...

Summary

The costs of black CD seem to be in-line with silver ones. It is probably worth making them the default choice for music recording.

[No Disc]

max,

Nice info, Well done. One thing that may be worth trying, and something I am careful to adhere to is buring at the slowest speed possible. This may mean you might have to try a manual process, but I'm not sure on your end. Try 2x and see if that offers any additional benifit. I always use 2x and even 1x. Yes it's slow, but since I'm taking the time to do it, I might as well do it right.

Also note this thread posted a while back by Mobile. Add this into the mix and see if you get additional improvement.

See this thread: Virtually FREE Tweak 101: CD Mat

http://forums.klipsch.com/idealbb/view.asp?topicID=10908&forumID=68&catID=19&search=1&searchstring=&sessionID={7BC15A67-1A5F-476E-80AA-25F66868F710}

[maxg]

tb,

now that is a new one on me - I must have missed that one the first go round. Sadly I have not seen a 5.25 inch disk in ages - wouldnt know where to go about hunting for one....

[No Disc]

Max,

There are probably not available at the local store anymore, but for the obscure and obsolete stuff....

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3467782088&category=3666

There are, of course, commerical versions of this specifically for the pupose that mobile has outlined. Stereophile recommended is the Audioprism CD Blacklight, which I own.

http://www.fullswing.com/audioprism/blacklight.html

and

http://www.stereophile.com/finetunes/396/

( about midway down on that page )

It has my vote as something that you would think could not possibly work, but somehow does. I use it with my Cary 308 and also my SCD-777es SACD player.

[NOSValves]

Tim,

I tell you what that first article you posted is really interesting ! Although some of his points really seem anal for the most part it makes some sence to me. Geez I'm not sure I would ever find the time to switch my 300 run of the mill discs to Black at 1X write speed though

Craig

[sunnysal]

thanks max for all that effort, your methodology and results seem good enough for me to sway me to try some black disks myself. I will post too once I have a chance to perform similar listening tests. thanks again, tony

[maxg]

Tony,

Glad it was of help - please let us all know what results you obtain.

Cheers

[Klipsch RF7]

Alright!! I am currently about to obtain an External Iomega Predator 4x6x drive and going to pick up some Maxell black CD-r's from local CompUSA and get the software online. Hope to clean up some CD's!!

[Parrot]

Handel,

Don't accept the benefits of black CDRs automatically as fact. Use your own ears. I find it complete and total unadulterated nonsense. But if someone thinks it sounds better, more power to him. If you end up thinking it sounds better, or if you notice no difference whatsoever, either way is fine.

The data on the CDRs is absolutely identical bit for bit. That can be proven. But it is impossible to prove or disprove whether something sounds subjectively better to an individual listening to it. If your system sounds better to you after you rotate once on your left foot counterclockwise before sitting down, no one can prove or disprove it.

[No Disc]

Paul, did you bother to read the PDF that explains in great detail why it works?

yea, bits are bits and they are all there, but what happens when the pit that is supposed to be a one or zero is deformed and is read incorrectly or not at all?

Jitter is well documented and not just from this guys document. Mass marketed CDs are pressed (stamped) with glass masters, not burned with lasers, and they do thousands at a time. It's a HUGE industry problem and Sony has invested huge amounts of money to correct the problem using higher quality glass masters. The CD mastering houses are VERY VERY well aware of the issue and you don't have to look very hard on the web to find discussion about it.

Just because YOU dont understand the issue does not make it nonsense. It just means YOU have not bothered to read up on it to try to understand the issue.

- tb

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On 3/17/2004 3:41:32 PM paulparrot wrote:

Handel,

Don't accept the benefits of black CDRs automatically as fact. Use your own ears. I find it complete and total unadulterated nonsense. But if someone thinks it sounds better, more power to him. If you end up thinking it sounds better, or if you notice no difference whatsoever, either way is fine.

The data on the CDRs is absolutely identical bit for bit. That can be proven. But it is impossible to prove or disprove whether something sounds subjectively better to an individual listening to it. If your system sounds better to you after you rotate once on your left foot counterclockwise before sitting down, no one can prove or disprove it.

----------------

[No Disc]

Paul, did you bother to read the PDF that explains in great detail why it works?

yea, bits are bits and they are all there, but what happens when the pit that is supposed to be a one or zero is deformed and is read incorrectly or not at all?

Jitter is well documented and not just from this guys document. Mass marketed CDs are pressed (stamped) with glass masters, not burned with lasers, and they do thousands at a time. It's a HUGE industry problem and Sony has invested huge amounts of money to correct the problem using higher quality glass masters. The CD mastering houses are VERY VERY well aware of the issue and you don't have to look very hard on the web to find discussion about it.

Just because YOU dont understand the issue does not make it nonsense. It just means YOU have not bothered to read up on it to try to understand the issue.

- tb

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On 3/17/2004 3:41:32 PM paulparrot wrote:

Handel,

Don't accept the benefits of black CDRs automatically as fact. Use your own ears. I find it complete and total unadulterated nonsense. But if someone thinks it sounds better, more power to him. If you end up thinking it sounds better, or if you notice no difference whatsoever, either way is fine.

The data on the CDRs is absolutely identical bit for bit. That can be proven. But it is impossible to prove or disprove whether something sounds subjectively better to an individual listening to it. If your system sounds better to you after you rotate once on your left foot counterclockwise before sitting down, no one can prove or disprove it.

----------------

[Ray Garrison]

tbabb,

Gotta be careful here. It (jitter) is not in any way related to a mis-read of a pit or land, resulting in a zero where there ought to be a one or vice versa. This type of error is *FULLY* corrected by the CRC error correcting code incorporated into the CD standard. Claiming that this is where the improvement comes from (fewer read errors) plays right into Parrot's (and others) claims that the whole thing is bogus.

The white paper makes it clear that the orginal CD's and the CD-R copies read bit for bit identically.

Jitter results in a lowering of the precision with which the eye pattern that results from the data stream can be read.

Click on image for explination.

[rtaylor]

yea, bits are bits and they are all there, but what happens when the pit that is supposed to be a one or zero is deformed and is read incorrectly or not at all?

Enlighten me please. If you copy a disc that has deformed pits and your cd player can't read it a computer combo burner and player is going to read this and repair or gloss over bad bits and pits?

Is this done by the program that is installed? I can see how a better quality cdr could catch more info (less drops) but I'm not seeing something here with the bad to good recording? Help please!

[No Disc]

Ray,

Good link and info there. Lot's of info to digest. I'm going to read and absorb the information there before taking the discussion further.

- tb

[Parrot]

Tbabb, I read the article you reference last year, actually. I did not believe it then and I don't believe it now.

I am not denying that jitter exists, or that there can be problems in mastering, or playback, or any of that. I am simply disagreeing with the writer's conclusions.

As I said, if this guy thinks a black CDR sounds "better," there is no way to prove or disprove that. What could I say? "No, he doesn't think it sounds better!" He has a right to his opinion.

I have burned black CDRs in the past and heard no difference.

Let's take Max's findings. He thinks black sounds better for a couple of seconds and then the same, explaining that his brain has adjusted to the change. That doesn't convince me. But then again, I don't mind if Max wants to use black CDRs. It doesn't affect me any. But I wouldn't want everyone to get in a panic and think all their CDRs are bad because they aren't black, and reburn them all.

You need not be confrontational about this. I think most tweaks are nonsense but I certainly don't care what people choose to do in the privacy of their own living rooms.

Have you tried the tweaks that I linked to, recommended by Ric Shultz? They are pretty wild. Have you tried burning a CDR of a CDR of a CDR of a CDR, as someone recommended? Have you tried the lathe device that re-cuts the CD to make it perfectly round? The other day I read where somebody said a CDR didn't sound good right after he made it, and then the next day it sounded fine. Where does it end? Why do you think they call it Audio ASYLUM?

[No Disc]

Ray,

I'll have to dig deeper, but would not this statement on that very same web site seem to make your statement false. Read about when the ECC fails. Preventing read errors is the key to lower distortion. Yea, the circuitry can correct for errors, but it's usually as the cost of higher distortion.

tb

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We have all heard the familiar clicks and skips from our CD Audio Player that result from a scratched, damaged, or dirty CD disc. Sometimes the effects of disc defects can be subtle and result in audio distortion instead of obvious click and skips. This distortion results from the inability of standard CD player's error correction codes (ECC) to correct for the ablation of the underlying audio information by a scratch defect or electrical noise.

In fact, when the CD ECC fails, many CD drives have special circuitry called "error concealment" circuitry to conceal the errors that ECC was unable to fix. The error concealment circuitry introduces distortion while it tries to interpolate through the errors. Many types if error concealment circuity will even insert audio noise when activated to mask the errors. This is hardly what lovers of high fidelity audio reproduction seek.

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