leok Posted March 27, 2004 Share Posted March 27, 2004 Craig, Sorry you have had such bad experiences with the Jensens. Many people are not as unlucky and get to hear a very impressive alternative to to the plastics. Leo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted March 27, 2004 Share Posted March 27, 2004 ---------------- On 3/27/2004 1:30:59 PM bclarke421 wrote: You know, maybe the Jensons aren't any good, but I hear good things about Jensen. Those dang knock-off products. I still think I'll trust Leo on this, if you don't mind very much. By the way, there is an "e" at the end of my name. ---------------- Like I care one way or the other on all counts ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted March 27, 2004 Share Posted March 27, 2004 ---------------- On 3/27/2004 4:25:40 PM leok wrote: Craig, Sorry you have had such bad experiences with the Jensens. Many people are not as unlucky and get to hear a very impressive alternative to to the plastics. Leo ---------------- I bet those same people are using cathode biased amps ! Luck has nothing to do with it these caps leak its a fact not luck of the draw. I just would never use a cap that leaks in any measurable way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Painful Reality Posted March 27, 2004 Share Posted March 27, 2004 ---------------- On 3/27/2004 1:16:51 PM NOSValves wrote: Leo, I wouldn't use a Jensen if you paid for them !! Craig ---------------- Please send me all paid for, unused Jensen you may have. I'll gladly take them, especially the copper foil in oil! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted March 27, 2004 Author Share Posted March 27, 2004 I think leakage means slower charge and discharge rates. Maybe horns benefit from this somehow? If there is only a hair widths difference between conditioned films and PIOs, then I see no real reason to commit to the expense and near unworkable sizes of the PIOs -- at least for what I do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3dzapper Posted March 27, 2004 Share Posted March 27, 2004 I have had the same results as Craig with Samgamo PIOs used for output stage coupling. About 50% leaked and as the time went on the bias increased until the EL-84's plates glowed. A set of Sprauge Orange Drops cured that amp. I later tested a bunch of the Sangamos with 100Vdc and a 10ohm resistor and confirmed that they all leaked! Some much more than others. It wouldn't hesitate to use those caps in a crossover at the low voltages encountered there but, they will stay in the drawer when I'm building or recapping an amp. Rick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted March 27, 2004 Share Posted March 27, 2004 ---------------- Please send me all paid for, unused Jensen you may have. I'll gladly take them, especially the copper foil in oil! ---------------- I'm absolutely sure you would ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted March 27, 2004 Author Share Posted March 27, 2004 Hey Craig, you have a leaky brain, but it doesn't stop you from using it. Don't feel bad though, my brain has a dead short. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Painful Reality Posted March 27, 2004 Share Posted March 27, 2004 If there is only a hair widths difference between conditioned films and PIOs, then I see no real reason to commit to the expense and near unworkable sizes of the PIOs -- at least for what I do. ---------------- I agree with you on this one. Unless you build an external crossover and are interested to flunk a big amount of cash, using PIO like a Jensen is not really feasable. Those caps are huge and really costly whenever they go above the 1 uF value. Whenever amps are concerned, PIO, like so may other things will raise some debates (even the defunct Sound Practices couldn't avoid debates over Vitamin Qs). It's really a question of taste here. I'll never say (or implie) that you HAVE to use those and if you do not you are an idiot. It's OK if one doesn't like them. In my case, I have used many different PIO with DHT amps (cathode biased or not, SET or PP) with great results without any leakage problem. That is sufficient for me to strongly consider them, even recommend them. At least the Jensen, the VitQs and one of my favorites, the Anstron (good luck finding those tin foil in oil oldies though). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted March 27, 2004 Author Share Posted March 27, 2004 When are the Klipschorns due in Jeff? Are you excited, or apprehensive? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted March 27, 2004 Author Share Posted March 27, 2004 Avoid using cheap anything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted March 28, 2004 Share Posted March 28, 2004 Well if Paper in Oil was still considered the best then I am absolutely sure the US Military would still be using them !! But they are not hmmmmmmmmmm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted March 28, 2004 Author Share Posted March 28, 2004 "As far as Paper in Oil caps go. I suggest everyone think about when they were highly used in the Audio Electronic industry, and when they stopped being used and why ! They were used because nothing else was available at the time -- as soon as something better came along (film and foil) they were not used...." I don't see anything in <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" />Craig's statements that can be disputed, since I believe by "better" he means more reliable. For audio purposes, it's probably true the PIOs sound much better than wound polyester, since K is about the same for both polypropylene and mineral oil/kraft paper (about 2.2 -- if a 10% paper/plate contact is assumed ). However, I don't think a good argument can be made in favor of PIOs (electrically speaking) because of the hiigher leakage rates and slower charge/discharge rates. A high quality paper/oil capacitor is light-years ahead of plastic dielectrics as far as reliability is concerned. Well then, there shouldn't be any problem using them in coupling positions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted March 28, 2004 Share Posted March 28, 2004 ---------------- On 3/28/2004 2:00:16 PM Ryan C. Inman wrote: ---------------- On 3/28/2004 10:30:22 AM NOSValves wrote: Well if Paper in Oil was still considered the best then I am absolutely sure the US Military would still be using them !! But they are not hmmmmmmmmmm ---------------- Actually, they ARE still using them for high powered equipment, radio transmitters, etc. Most of the electronics have shifted towards the use of semiconductors (solid-state) devices which make more use of electrolytics. Why do you comment on the military when you have no clue? -Ryan ---------------- And exactly how would you know what they use ! My brother spent 15 years in the Air force as a Radio Technician and was here just yesterday and said they never used "Paper in Oil" in the 15 years he was there and he was discharged 10 years ago ! Maybe they do still use them in some obscrure high power equipment but not in 99% of the gear they have new or old. If they did use this stuff surplus parts would surface but they never seem to now do they ! Craig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted March 28, 2004 Author Share Posted March 28, 2004 "Paper/oil type capacitors were a rarity in consumer grade equipment, he means paper/wax types, which are totally different. If you don't agree, give me brand names of equipment that came stock with paper/oil capacitors." Paul Klipsch used them, and he certainly didn't have a reputation for using the best money could buy. OTOH, I do understand there is a difference between something really nice like the Sprague Vitamin Q and the Motor Runs in the old Klipsch crossovers. At any rate, I understand the point you were trying to make. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted March 28, 2004 Share Posted March 28, 2004 Think about it, it's common sense. Your brother worked on solid-state radio equipment. Notice the words SOLID-STATE, as in transistorized. Most, if not all of these use electrolytic capacitors for coupling positions. If he was truly a radio technician, then he will know about linear amplifiers and transmitters. The transmitters run large triode tubes, usually six of them. At full power operation, all six tubes are run in parallel. In half-power mode, three of the six tubes are run in parallel for 1/2 power output. These tubes run on high voltage/high current. An example would be 10,000VDC at 15 Amperes per plate. Obviously, the filter capacitor banks must be enormous, all capacitors are paper/oil type. The military wouldn't use anything else because they would fail. My Father was a radioman in the US Navy throughout the 1960's, and worked on the transmitters. -Ryan ---------------- This is not 1960 I hate to tell you !! Exactly what does these 10,000 VDC mystery devices have to do with coupling caps in a tube amplifier or a crossover network ?? Think about it please I bet you a dime to a dollar that the US Military in this day and age doesn't use a single Paper in Oil capacitor. I have no way to varify one way or the other but it sure seems that if they did surplus would show up some where. Craig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted March 28, 2004 Share Posted March 28, 2004 ---------------- I did see something in his reply that needed disputed. Paper/oil type capacitors were a rarity in consumer grade equipment, he means paper/wax types, which are totally different. If you don't agree, give me brand names of equipment that came stock with paper/oil capacitors. Higher leakage rates can be disputed, they change with the brand. All of the better made, hermetically sealed types (Vitamin Q, Astron, Good-All, Mallory, Super-Pup, Tiny Chief, Westcap, and a million others) have extremely high leakage ratings. It's the new audiophile grade garbage that ruined their reputation, these new companies don't know how to make them properly. It's funny I'm running a pair of Westinghouse 4 uF 600V caps in my crossovers, and after 62 years, leakage is still well above 40M ohms. Speaks volumes about the quality if you ask me. There shouldn't be a problem running any *well made* PIO capacitor in a coupling position, the Vitamin Q is a great example. I can verify the other brand names listed above as well, including General Electric and Westinghouse. Your Q ratings are incorrect for vintage PIO capacitors, they all used chlorinated oils, totally different from mineral oil. The old PCB oil was the best dielectric fluid ever created by man, nothing has been made that has better insulation properties than it. Mineral oil does not offer high resistance, and is probably one reason why the newer capacitors leak so bad. If you want PIO, buy vintage surplus, American or German made. -Ryan ---------------- Ryan, You think like a hobbyist. These companies and capacitors your mentioning as high quality components do not exist except in spuractic supplies and almost never in the values one would want for what we do ! Were talking about product that we can buy and use and depend on getting not magical caps from the past to install in one set of crossovers or one amp ! We need products made today that we CAN RELY ON !! There is no currently manufactured Paper in Oil capacitor worth a sh!t ! I truly believe there never was I think this is why they disapeared from the market place. Craig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Painful Reality Posted March 28, 2004 Share Posted March 28, 2004 Those darn hobbyists... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted March 28, 2004 Author Share Posted March 28, 2004 LOL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted March 28, 2004 Share Posted March 28, 2004 ---------------- On 3/28/2004 7:54:39 PM painful reality wrote: Those darn hobbyists... ---------------- I for one know your really not a hobbyist ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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