Deang Posted March 24, 2004 Share Posted March 24, 2004 With "conditioning", any distance between the higher quality metallized types and the more expensive film and foils -- at least, in the speaker crossover application -- is inconsequential. Comparing "conditioned" Auricaps and the new Kimber Kaps to the AudioCap Thetas left me wondering if I was really hearing a difference at all. Leo's conditioning process must really be having a greater effect than I originally thought it would. Original comparisons between the Auricap and Theta definitely left me with the impression that the Theta had a cleaner top end -- but now I hear no perceivable difference. Based on this, I will probably be using the new capacitors from Ray Kimber, or the Auricaps when I do my AK-4 boards. I believe these caps are basically the same, with the exception that the Kimbers are longer like the Hovlands, and the Auricaps a bit shorter and fatter like the Thetas. Because of the various board layouts, the Auricaps are better suited shape-wise for the Chorus' and Fortes, and the double stacked boards of the RF-7 make the Kimbers a welcome option. Both brands of capacitors have their leads soldered on, versus "mashed in" using a paste like the Solens. With DC conditioning on the caps, I see no real reason to use the more expensive film and foils unless you are striken with some real phobia regarding the metallized types. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leok Posted March 24, 2004 Share Posted March 24, 2004 Dean, It's interesting you find that conditioning brings caps' performance closer, and consistent with my experience. Leo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted March 25, 2004 Author Share Posted March 25, 2004 What is even more "interesting" is how some manufacturers are now responding to this phenomena as if they've been reading your posts on the subject. Jeff from Sonic Craft definitely applies the principle in the manufacture of his Sonicaps, and the advertising for the new Kimber capacitors has an interesting spin on this as well. The truly amazing thing to me is that the majority of users that tap into this market are folks who more times than not are using speakers of lower sensitivity, in conjunction with amplification that certainly should be delivering sufficient voltage to break the caps in properly. OTOH, I think 200 watts equates to about 50 volts -- so maybe not. I'm not sure about those numbers -- what do you think? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daddy Dee Posted March 25, 2004 Share Posted March 25, 2004 Dean, You may need to start a thread called: "Cap conditioning for Itiots". What I'm understanding is that some considerable bucks can be saved by conditioning good quality metallized caps as opposed to the more expensive film and foils... is this right? My knowledge of caps and cost is about zip. So, in a substantial crossover project, what's the ball park on difference in cost for parts? Any help for dummies is appreciated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Klipsch RF7 Posted March 25, 2004 Share Posted March 25, 2004 Dean, How do the Auricaps differ over the existing stock Klipsch capacitors that are in the crossover? How do updated capacitors in electrical terms make the sound smoother and better? Do they hold a charge for a longer period, etc..... also, what caps does Klipsch use stock in there Reference line? Thanks and have a great day! Johann Helmich Roman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leok Posted March 25, 2004 Share Posted March 25, 2004 Dean, It's less of an issue with higher power situations, but is still there. There are always cap flaws that are likely to exist at and above the max voltage the cap has seen. So even the high power apps have an issue al close to the max power they've been exposed to. Your numbers look fine. Leo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted March 26, 2004 Author Share Posted March 26, 2004 Dee, if you want a good helping on thoughts regarding what conditioning does, just click on Leo's profile, and then click on "last 10 topics". Those threads will answer most, if not all of the questions you might have regarding the process. "What I'm understanding is that some considerable bucks can be saved by conditioning good quality metallized caps as opposed to the more expensive film and foils... is this right?" Yes, this is what I'm thinking. However, is anything really ever that definitive with this hobby? My comparsion was done with conditioned Auricaps, against AudioCap PPT Thetas which were NOT conditioned, but run in the old fashioned way -- with 40 to 60 watts of hard hitting Rock and Metal -- over a year period of time. We also have this problem of determining what a "good quality" metallized type is. For example: Many consider the Sonicap a "good quality" metallized type -- but Leo reported that his conditioned Hovlands sounded better than the Sonicaps he tried. We also have the problem of "diminishing returns". As you push the envelope and dish out the bucks -- the return in performance is less and less. Then you have to factor in the "critical ear" variable, as well as what is driving the speakers, and the music too. Someone like Leo or Kelly are obviously more critical then I am, in part because of the types of music they enjoy. Making things even more difficult is the application: Craig prefers the Sonicaps in the coupling positions of his amplifiers. Leo likes the conditioned Hovlands over the Sonicaps in his crossovers -- and I can't tell a hill a beans difference between the conditioned Auricaps and the AudioCap PPT Thetas -- which by most accounts are better than the Hovlands. I had an enjoyable conversation with Al K. the other day, and he brought some things to my attention I hadn't really thought much of before -- namely, series resistance, and the Q of the inductors. Al believes the biggest jump in performance comes from going to the polypropylene dielectic, primarily due to the drop in ESR. Certainly going from a polyester type to a polypropylene dielectric drops the resistance a little, but it's like I said to Al -- I don't think it's enough to account for the large increase in performance I'm hearing when going to these capacitors. I also think a significant drop in resistance would have a major impact on the the sonic signature of the speaker -- but that's not what I'm hearing. What I'm hearing is a "cleanliness" to the output that I don't hear with the stock stuff. "My knowledge of caps and cost is about zip. So, in a substantial crossover project, what's the ball park on difference in cost for parts? " Let's take an 8uF cap for comparison. 8uF, 200vdc AudioCap Theta $38.76 8uF, 100vdc Hovland $38.50 8uF, 200vdc Audience Auricap $21.95 8uF, 200vdc Kimber Kap $21.36 8.2uF, 220vdc Sonicap $15.60 8.2uF, 400vdc Solen $3.91 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cwm Posted March 26, 2004 Share Posted March 26, 2004 Try this and note the comments on oil caps.... http://members.aol.com/sbench102/caps.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted March 26, 2004 Share Posted March 26, 2004 You actually call Solen a cap Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted March 26, 2004 Author Share Posted March 26, 2004 Craig, well I don't call them "caps", but you know how it is. They're cheap, widely available, and come in just about every value you can possibly think of. Couple that with the fact that most just don't think there is any difference -- and you have a big seller. I figure if no one wants to use them in the signal path of an amplifier or preamp -- then I'm sure not using them in a speaker crossover. CWM, been to that site several times. PIOs have just as many people that hate them, as people that love them. Since I have no experience with them in crossovers, I have no opinon on them. For most of my work, they are simply too big to fit on OEM PCBs. I also feel that they are somewhat cost prohibitive. However, those using Heritage speakers with outboard crossovers, and the fact that the values are rather small -- should at least try them to see what they think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Klipsch RF7 Posted March 26, 2004 Share Posted March 26, 2004 Hmmmm, I see that the paper in oil caps got the best review Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3dzapper Posted March 26, 2004 Share Posted March 26, 2004 Georg, So does this: http://www.epinions.com/content_68360507012 What does the comparison say about reviewers? Rick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted March 26, 2004 Share Posted March 26, 2004 Erphan, That is one very narrow test and in a amplifier there are many variables to consider besides the simple test shown on that page. Nothing can really be decided from that test. Also the test doesn't name a number of capacitor types that could of been used or what brands were used pretty useless if you ask me. Craig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted March 26, 2004 Share Posted March 26, 2004 As far as Paper in Oil caps go. I suggest everyone think about when they were highly used in the Audio Electronic industry and when they stopped being used and why ! They were used because nothing else was available at the time as soon as something better came along (film and foil) they were not used. They are unreliable !! In fact darn right dangerous to the equipment. Of coarse I'm speaking from a amplifier perspective. Crossover are a different environment. Top that with the ridicules price for ancient technology and I see no sense in even considering them. Craig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djk Posted March 27, 2004 Share Posted March 27, 2004 "Al believes the biggest jump in performance comes from going to the polypropylene dielectic, primarily due to the drop in ESR. Certainly going from a polyester type to a polypropylene dielectric drops the resistance a little, but it's like I said to Al -- I don't think it's enough to account for the large increase in performance I'm hearing when going to these capacitors. I also think a significant drop in resistance would have a major impact on the the sonic signature of the speaker -- but that's not what I'm hearing. What I'm hearing is a "cleanliness" to the output that I don't hear with the stock stuff." As I have said before, the differences in capacitors comes down to two things: lead attachment dielectric absorption Think about what happens when the dielectric absorbs some charge on a positive going signal, now the signal swings through zero and goes negative. At zero there should be dead silence, no signal. The charge absorbed by the dielectric now discharges. The discharge is very nonlinear, random, it sounds like noise/hash. Since there is no signal to cover it up, it stands out like a sore thumb. The better the dielectric, the 'cleaner' the cap sounds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leok Posted March 27, 2004 Share Posted March 27, 2004 I have found that Jensen PIO caps are both reliable and also the best sounding caps I've used. I use them as interstage caps in tube amps and as filter caps in crossovers. I have found that conditioned Hovlands are in the same ballpark as far as sound, but haven't done detailed tests. Anyone going for a cost-no-object approach in capacitor choice owes it to himself/herself to try PIO. Leo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted March 27, 2004 Share Posted March 27, 2004 Leo, I wouldn't use a Jensen if you paid for them !! A really well known Hickok rebuilder Chris Haedt last month rebuilt a amp for a friend. This friend insisted on Jenson Copper PIO's even though Chris showed him that his $2K digital cap analyzer tested them as bad and leaky ! Guess what was back on his bench a month later with fried output tubes ? Two of Jenson's went dead shorted. Just another over priced Audiophile romance part !! I seen these same effects in my ST-70 I was playing with way back when I could not get a stable bias of the output with Jenson caps the harder you pushed the amp the worse the problem became. Craig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ben. Posted March 27, 2004 Share Posted March 27, 2004 Kinda like those EH 7591A's? As you pointed out when we were discussing my OP tube problems, a couple bad parts doesn't make the whole lot bad. Anecdotal evidence isn't worth too much when it comes to reliability in general terms. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted March 27, 2004 Share Posted March 27, 2004 Clark, Once again talking about thing you don't understand I see ! I have tested 4 Jensons here and he tested 8 there !! THEY ALL LEAKED TO SOME DEGREE !! His digital high dollar Lab tester said all 12 were BAD !! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ben. Posted March 27, 2004 Share Posted March 27, 2004 You know, maybe the Jensons aren't any good, but I hear good things about Jensen. Those dang knock-off products. I still think I'll trust Leo on this, if you don't mind very much. By the way, there is an "e" at the end of my name. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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