Audiogon purchase-dehavilland Verve preamp-tubes damaged in shipping-need advice

[LonestarBlues]

Hello. I bought a used dehavilland

Verve preamp from Audiogon. I used Fedex Air shipping and got the preamp yesterday. The preamp was well packed except for the tubes.

Original box from deHavilland was used-the preamp was sitting on mulitple pieces of really thick foam. 1-1/4" foam was in front of the faceplate & back of the preamp. 1-3/4" foam is used on the sides of the preamp & a 2" piece of foam covering the top. The preamp was encased in foam except on the very top sides. This is where Ted placed the tubes to ship. I think he removed a piece of foam on both top sides. Big mistake in my opinion. I requested to Ted-the seller to double box. He did & used foam peanuts/ghost turds to fill the void between boxes. The Verve uses octal tubes-1 6SN7, 2 6AH4 as a cathode follower & a 5U4 rectifier. Ted did not put the tubes in a separate box. He bubble wrapped 3

tubes, the rest of the tubes were in tube boxes. Ted purchased new tubes for the Verve in Jan. 2004-1 Sylvania 5U4 GB rectifier, 1-Tungsol 6SN7 & 2 General Electric 6AH4 GT. They have very low hours of use on them. Ted estimated Fedex Air shipping would be $70-$85. I sent payment last Wednesday-Fedex Standard overnight & included $85 to cover shipping.

Turns out shipping was only $63.

Instead of refunding my $22, Ted decided to send me some extra tubes that he has used in the last 2 years with the Verve preamp. The Verve preamp is 2 years old. The lifespan left in the tubes is questionable as Ted does not own a tube tester & he was well aware of the fact that I also do not own a tube tester. The extra tubes were

1 Tung Sol 5U4 GB, 1 Tung Sol 5U4

coke bottle shapped & 2 Philco 6AH4 GT tubes. I was informed of this after he had shipped the preamp out Friday. He did not ask if I wanted my money back that I had overpaid for shipping which in my opinion is not kosher of him. Here is a list of the tubes destroyed in shipping:

1. General Electric 6AH4 GT wrapped in bubble wrap, totally destroyed, glass in tiny pieces.

2. General Electric 6AH4 GT wrapped in bubble wrap, almost half the plastic base is destroyed broken off in pieces-vacuum seal is most likely history.

3. Philco 6AH4 GT in tube box- totally destroyed, glass in tiny pieces.

4. Philco 6AH4 GT in tube box-3 of the pins severely bent, trying to straighten out the pins would be a no go, the pins are f-upped.

5. Tung Sol 5U4 coke bottle shaped

wrapped in bubble wrap totally destroyed-glass in tiny pieces.

I contacted Ted last night by email & told him of the damaged tubes. Will file a claim with Fedex. I am not sure if they pay or not. I stated that I wished he would have packed the tubes in a separate box. He thinks that he did an adequate job of packing the tubes. I am hyper critical about

packing and when I opened the boxes up yesterday. I said to myself-good packing wth the exception of the tubes. Then I discovered the destroyed tubes. Upon further evaulation & inspection this morning, I know how the tubes were broken. The

preamp had some side to side

movement with the very top side portions of foam removed.The tubes were against the edge of the box with the 2" piece of top foam

covering the top of the preamp & tubes. Piss Poor Packing of the tubes in my opinion. Ted also had after market damping feet on the preamp which requires removing the bottom plate to install & remove. He had to remove the feet & reinstall the little bitty factory feet. One of the screws is missing which is very minor. I can go to Home Depot & try to find a small screw with the same thread size. I am not really happy about Ted's decision to keep my $22 that I over paid for shipping. He should of asked me if I wanted my money

back instead of sending me extra

tubes with a questionalble lifespan. I have not said anything to him yet about the $22. Can any of you Knowledgeable tube guys

guestimate whether the extra tubes he sent me would still be good. I talked with Ted on the phone previous to buying the preamp. Seems like a nice guy. He has exellent feedback on Audiogon. The preamp is beautiful. He had

oversized knobs machined at a machine shop & then had the knobs

& front faceplate gold plated at a plating shop. The ad with a picture is still up at Audiogon.

I sure hope that Fedex will pay the claim for the damaged tubes. I appreciate any advice & insight from my fellow Klipsch Forum members.

Regards, Mike

[LonestarBlues]

Hi Mark. Yes the Verve preamp was insured for $1000. I was very nice in my email to Ted last night. I stated that tubes were damaged in shipping & listed which tubes were destroyed. I also stated that I wished he would have packed the tubes in a separate box. In my opinion it was a probably a combination of poor packing & possibly rough handling that destroyed the tubes. Ted stated in his reply email that he thought the tubes were adequately packed. My opinion of the tube packing differs. I have never filed a claim with Fedex Air before. I have used them exclusively many times & have never had any stereo gear damaged by them. UPS on the

other hand cracked a faceplate on a Mcintosh MR 80 tuner in Mac factory double boxes & had the unmitigated gall to deny the claim due to inadequate packing. I will

not use UPS ever again for anything expensive & fragile. Audioclassics ate the cost of that glass faceplate due to their mistake of sending the tuner out by UPS instead of Fedex Air like they were instructed to. That Mac MR 80 was the tuner from Hell. Their tech-an ex Mcintosh employee could not repair the tuner. After 3 attempts at repair & having the tuner almost a year, they let me trade it in on a Mac MR 77 tuner.

It is a long story, bought the MR Mac 80 tuner from a guy in Plano, Texas who had bought the tuner from them. I got it off of Ebay. The guy burned me, selling me a

tuner with problems at a premium

price. Totally non responsive after the sell. Audioclassics agreed to repair the tuner at a

reduced rate and then could not fix it. What a nightmare that purchase was. I do not buy high dollar items from Ebay any more since I was burned.

Thanks for your reply.

Regards, Mike

[Johnny TN]

I recently had a problem with fedex myself..ground to canada..buyer said the the item is damage..problem with me is that since the buyer is in canada he wanted to under value the item for duty/tax reasons..Now he wants money back.. Screw that because I will lose out almost 1/3 due to his idea of undervaluing.. FedEx is normally very good with insurance claims..I dont think you will have much of a issue.

[whell]

I agree with mdeneen. Go for the claim, and push back hard if they try to lowball or deny a settlement.

[Parrot]

Mike,

I don't know what value the tubes have to you, but assuming that most of the price is for the preamp itself, I would forget about the tubes, and write it off to just one of those things.

FedEx will probably take many months of you aggravating them before they will decide to pay on your claim. That's IF you get over the first hurdle, of proving that the contents damage was their fault and not the fault of the original packer not doing a good enough job. And you yourself state that the tubes weren't packed adequately. The FedEx guys are fairly likely to deny your claim just on inadequate packaging alone. But IF you make it by that first step, it's still going to take months. Save yourself the misery of prolonging it, and just write it off.

If you look at it from FedEx's point of view, how could they possibly protect something as fragile as glass tubes when they aren't packed adequately? There isn't a commercial carrier on the planet that handles a package like it was nitro, every step of the way. It's just impossible. If the packaging isn't extremely well done, it's only good luck if you get something unscathed.

Check out one of Ray's posts in this thread. "Insurance" is *not* insurance:

http://forums.klipsch.com/idealbb/view.asp?topicID=48577&sessionID={086D9CD9-62A1-405A-AF7E-25DAF64F656A}}

Also read Ray's description of a FedEx sorting facility.

[jerohm]

----------------

On 4/27/2004 2:05:31 PM mdeneen wrote:

As for insurance, my primary concern is a totally LOST package, in which case they have no reason to deny the claim.

mdeneen

----------------

Even then, it is not exactly simple. The US Postal service lost an SAE Mark VIII tuner that I sold & was shipping to California. They finally came though but the ordeal took months. And don't expect to recoup more than what you can prove it was the worth ... which is debatable on a used item. Complete documentation of the transaction (emails, copies of checks, PayPal records, etc ) prior to shipping is essential.

[LonestarBlues]

Ok, let me get y'alls opinion on this. I overpaid $22 for shipping.

Instead of sending me the $22 back

Ted sent some 2 year old tubes listed above with questionable life expectancy since neither one of us own a tube tester. I think it was mighty presumptious of him to make that decision without contacting me. His decision rubs me the wrong way perhaps due to my last Audiogon purchase. Seller quoted x$ amount for Fedex Air shipping. When I got the package I had overpaid for shipping. I did not raise a stink & just let it go & did not ask for the money back. I personally would refund money if I over charged for shipping. If the shoe was on the other foot, he probably would not like me keeping his money & sending him questionable tubes. I am going to tactfully talk to him about this.

I have kept all our Email correspondance & in 1 dated Friday

April 23 where Ted informs me that he shipped out the preamp, sent extra questionable tubes & is keeping the $22 for those extra tubes. He also states that he will replace any current use tubes if they break. Current use tubes are the tubes he bought in Jan. 2004.

I guess I will have to remind him of his email or send him a copy of it. A pair of General Electric 6AH4 GT purchased in Jan 2004 were destroyed. I can't use the preamp now due to no 6AH4 tubes. 3 tubes

survived-Sylvania 5U4 GB & Tung Sol 6SN7-both bought in Jan. 2004

and a 2 year old Tung Sol 5U4 GB with questionable life. I am a laid back Texan who is an old school straight shooter-non bull ****ter. I am going to tactfully

state my opinion that I think his packing of the tubes & perhaps rough handling was the contributing factors of the destroyed tubes. I am going to ask that he replace the destroyed 6AH4 tubes & refund my $22 that I over paid for shipping. I will gladly mail him back the destroyed tubes. Thanks for your replies.

Regards, Mike

[louis]

fed ex will take a while to go thru all paperwork they want also at end then because i filed claim now want shipper to sign releasei dont think they will pay peanuts in outside box usless for heavy items will shift onl;y way to come close is pack down several times good luck ask factory where they put tubes

[fini]

Mark,

As a side note, you must know Kara Chaffee, deHavilland's designer? She's in Cloverdale, and is an expert on Hickok tube testers. Northern CA is ripe with tube geniuses!!

[edster00]

Did the seller say he would charge actual shipping charges? If so, hold him to it. You can get very accurate quotes from each carriers web site, there is absolutely no reason to be off by $22 IMHO.

When I sell a piece of gear, I always charge actual shipping charges. If someone asks before the end of the sale "how much the shipping will be to zip xxxxx" I'll give them an estimate and make it clear it is an estimate. I always try to over estimate by a couple of bucks, it is always better to tell someone shipping is less than you estimated than to tell them it is more. After the sale is agreed to by both parties I give actual shipping charges-the only reason the two charges are different is that I (over) estimated the weight of the package. I rarely box the item before the sale is agreed to because I have had to un-box too many times for one reason or another. Once I give the final shipping quote I feel I am responsible for charges above what I stated and I refund charges under what I stated.

As far as the tubes go, if you have the email saying he will replace them, I'd ask him to. It may not happen, but it sure doesn't hurt to ask. What do you think the value of the tubes are? I'm not that up on prices for the ones that were destroyed.

To get a carrier to admit to damage responsiblilty does happen, but as others have mentioned, it is usually a time consuming process.

Good luck with your purchase and please let us know how it all turns out!

[T2K]

Sorry to hear of your problems Mike. I can tell you from recent experience that if you well document packaging/rough handling of packages with pictures, receipts, etc. then FedEx will pay off, promptly. Maybe not the complete loss, but a FAIR amount.

In your case I'm not sure you will collect though. Seems to me that it would be hard to demonstrate rough handling when the preamp was not damaged.

Maybe the seller thought he was giving you a deal on the tubes that he no longer needed. He should have asked you though.

In my experience I have found that if you are straight up and honest regarding the transaction, most reputable sellers will take the lead in trying to satisfy their buyers. Lay your feelings out there in a gentlemanly fashion and see what happens. Your feedback should reflect the transaction.

Good luck, hope everything works out for you.

Keith

[LonestarBlues]

I emailed Ted a nice gentlemanly email stating that I wanted to talk to him before filing a claim

with Fedex. I stated that in my humble opinion it was a combination of rough handling & inadequate packing that damaged/

destroyed 5 of 8 tubes. I proposed that he replace the 2 current 6AH4 tubes bought in Jan. 2004 that were destroyed. I stated verbatum

what he had written in his Friday April 23 email- that he would replace any current tubes free of charge if they break. I have copies of all our emails & my emails to him. I also stated I would mail him the damaged tubes & 1 surving extra tube and would like my $22 refunded. I stated I would like to listen to & enjoy the preamp now & avoid a possible delay if Fedex were to come & pick up the preamp & boxes for inspection. A Fedex claim with no damaged box may pay or not pay

a claim. I am giving Ted the opportunity to step up to the plate & do the right thing. I emailed him late this afternoon & so far have not recieved a reply. He lives in El Granada, California

so he is on Pacific time-2 hours differenece from Texas Central time. Hopefully the problem will be resolved.

Regards, Mike

[LonestarBlues]

Ted-the Verve preamp seller replied to my afternoon email. Ted refuses to entertain the thought that his inadequate packing caused 5 of the 8 tubes to be destroyed. He claims he spent almost 3 hours packing the preamp. He admits the preamp may have shifted during shipping but it has to be rough handling & or a drop from a height that destroyed the tubes, could not have been his packing. I told him the preamp was well packed with the exception of the tubes which I thought were inadequately packed. I told him that we have differing opinions on how the tubes were packed. Accused me of being unreasonable in not wanting to file a damage claim with Fedex. I never stated that I did not want to file a claim. I just inferred that a claim would most likely be denied due to inadequate packing of the tubes. I told Ted that I wanted things to remain amicable & not get into a pissing match. That one of us could file a claim but with no visible damage what so ever to the boxes that I would be shocked if Fedex pays a claim. He says he is ready to fully cooperate and replace free of charge any current tubes I need. I informed Ted that I need a pair of 6AH4 tubes in order to ascertain that the Verve preamp arrived unscathed & is working. I let Ted know that I was not happy that he made the decision of keeping $22 that I overpaid for shipping. And sending me 2 year old tubes with as he stated questionable life expectancy. I told him he should have contacted me and let it be my decision. I stated if the shoe was on the other foot & I was the seller & made that decision for him, he would not be happy. I am reserving judgement for now. I am in my Missouri-Show Me State of mind right now. He has excellent feedback on Audiogon. I will see if he actually buys & sends me a pair of 6AH4 tubes & refunds my $22. Our agreement for shipping was actual costs & his estimate for shipping was high. It is time for Ted to step up to the plate and rectify the problem. I guess I will find out in the near future if Ted is the real deal-a decent guy or just paying me lip service & blowing smoke up my butt.

Regards, Mike

[LonestarBlues]

Well apparently Ted is the real deal-a gentleman. He just sent me an email stating that he had ordered from ASTI in Florida a pair of 6AH4 tubes. He also is sending another 6SN7 tube & 5U4GB Russian equivalent rectifier tube from ASTI. He said it would probably take a week before I recieved the tubes. Ted is also mailing my $22 over payment for shipping back to me today. I thanked Ted in my reply email & offered him the option of either him or I filing a damage claim with Fedex. I did again voice my opinion that Fedex would probably balk & deny the claim due to inadequate packing of the tubes. I told Ted if Fedex pays the claim that the money belongs to him. I am waiting for his reply to see what he wants to do with Fedex. My faith in humanity is once again restored as there are still decent

old school gentleman out there. I am a happy camper. Ted emailed me again & has filed a damage claim with Fedex.

Regards, Mike

[Johnny dB]

I'm glad it's all working out for you Lonestar and that preamp looks awesome!

Only thing that has me baffled is this guy had a kick@ss setup w/ this pre and 22W of SET monoblocs and he's "selling to get back into solid state". WTFever!! I bet he had over $8k in that setup; I wonder how much he'll spend on SS that will sound as good. He must not have Klipsch speakers.

[T2K]

Glad to hear things are working out for you Mike. I personally try to remember to think the best of others and leave it up to them to prove me wrong.

Keith

[LonestarBlues]

Ted is interested in Mcintosh solid state gear & is goiing the used equipment route. He was asking me questions about my Mac gear & my Cornwalls. He wanted to see a picture of the Cornwalls. I referred him to the Belgaudio.com/ kcmap.htm website where that European guy did a comprehensive review of his pair of Cornwall II speakers. Ted owns a pair of Tannoy Stirling HE speakers-dual concentric woofer/ tweeter. I also try to think the best of others. But Ted had me worried when he developed an attitude about filing a damage claim with Fedex. He misunderstood the contents of my email. I diffused the situation by remaining calm & civil in my reply

to him stating I was not against filing a claim wth Fedex, I just thought that Fedex would ultimately balk & deny the claim. I also nicely pointed out the error of his ways in keeping my $22 shipping over payment & let him know I was not happy with his decision. I used the analogy that if the shoe was on the other foot. And I was the seller & kept his $22 & sent him 4 tubes with questionable life expectancy without allowing him to make the decision. He most likely would not be happy. Neither one of us own tube testers & he was well aware that I do not own one. He still will not admit to the possibilty that it was bad packing that destroyed 5 out of the 8 tubes. I

would not mind buying his amps if I could swing the dinero. But it is too much money for me. Plus I now have 3 high end systems & a collection of stereo gear from

1977 to present. I inherited the pack rat syndrom from my dad & his side of the family. We tend to hoard items in what ever hobby we are into. My dad was into photography, woodworking & collecting antique tools-mostly antique wood planes-especially Stanley brand. I live in the 2133

sq. foot house he built back in 1964. He built the house in 6 months after work & on weekends. His older brother Bill owned a lumber yard so he got lumber etc. at costs. My dad worked at Pontiac Refinery-now Citgo as a Computer Systems Analyst. My dad gaduated from Texas A&M with a degree in Industrial Arts in 1947. He taught

shop for several years at a Mississippi Junior College before moving to Corpus Christi, Texas in the early 1950's and going to work at Pontiac Renfinery. My dad was was the original Bob Villa. He could build & fix anything. He drew up the plans for the house & then built it. The house has a photography darkroom & a large wood working shop off the double

double garage. I inherited cameras & photography equipment up the wazoo. My dad used to be a wedding photographer on the side & was very good. He did lots of weddings just through word of mouth-no advertising. He enjoyed his hobby & was making money. I also inherited a shop full of power wood working tools-table saws, radial arm saw, band saw, planer, jointer, band saw, drill press, industrial metal lathe etc.

Plus what is left of his large

antique tool collection that his cu$t rhyhmes with hunt of a 3rd wife didn't steal before the Probate Court awarded us the tool collection. Went through a 5 year

legal battle with that biatch after my dad died. She sued us and challenged his Last Will & Testament. My siblings & I ultimately prevailed but spent alot of money in legal fees. Very long story-his 3rd wife sued my dad for divorce & wanted spousal support while my dad had terminal pancreatic cancer & only a few months to live. She got ripped off using my dad's credit cards & check book on a 2 week $16,000 spending spree after my dad was diagnosed with terminal pancreatic

cancer & was recovering from surgery in the hospital. She was a non signatory, was not allowed to sign on either the credit cards or checks. They had completely separate bank accounts, credit

cards etc. & did not comingle any of their money. Upon being ripped off, my dad told his wife he did not want anything to do with her at all. She had gone on other spending sprees throughout their 5 year marriage that we were not aware of. This was the straw that broke the camel's back. She was 10 years younger than my dad & married herself a sugar daddy. Well enough of that bullsh$t, brings back bad memories. Man, I do miss my dad, he was a cool smart guy.

Regrds, Mike