leok Posted May 10, 2004 Share Posted May 10, 2004 Last night, at Sanders Theater at Harvard, I heard Yo-Yo Ma perform the Bach Cello Suite #1. He performed the "Prelude" first on his Baroque 1712 Stradivarius, then performed the entire 6 piece suite on his 1733 Montagnana "modern" cello. Sanders Theater is reasonably small and my wife and I had good seats. There was no amplification (congratulations to Harvard). The performance was easily all that one might hope for in such a venue: One of the world's top cello pieces played by one of the world's top cello players on two of the world's top cellos, in a small theater. To the point on a Klipsch forum: I have the Columbia M2K 37867 recordings by Yo-Yo Ma. He has a second set which I will purchase, based on what I heard last night, but the sound: My RF-7s (modified crossovers) are much closer to what I heard last night than the Chorus-II (also modified crossovers). The SET amplification I use, in comparison with my other amps, adds a considerable touch of reality (or actually removes a considerable touch of artificiality). I know that solo unamplified cello is not mainstream music to many people on this forum, but for those interested in such things, the RF-7, with some serious crossover attention and SET amplification, brings a listener remarkably close to the Sanders Theater experience .. which is where I want to be. John Lithgow conducted a very interesting discussion with Yo-Yo Ma, who was at Sanders Theater to receive the "2004 Harvard Arts Medal." Leo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dubai2000 Posted May 10, 2004 Share Posted May 10, 2004 Interesting post. I suppose this 'having less artificiality' is what I also encounter when switching from my Mc amps (which I love) to the SE OTL. This is tricky to put into words, but it can clearly be heard (and not only on solo cello recordings - IMO! - so no flame war necessary). BTW: Leo, thanks for mentioning the Philips 963SA - as related in another thread, this player is really most surprising. Wolfram Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ssh Posted May 10, 2004 Share Posted May 10, 2004 It is an absolute joy to listen to Yo-Yo Ma through my JFL 2A3s & khorns. Live- enviable. SSH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LarryC Posted May 10, 2004 Share Posted May 10, 2004 ---------------- On 5/10/2004 9:14:18 AM leok wrote: Last night, at Sanders Theater at Harvard, I heard Yo-Yo Ma perform the Bach Cello Suite #1. He performed the "Prelude" first on his Baroque 1712 Stradivarius, then performed the entire 6 piece suite on his 1733 Montagnana "modern" cello. Sanders Theater is reasonably small and my wife and I had good seats. There was no amplification (congratulations to Harvard). The performance was easily all that one might hope for in such a venue: One of the world's top cello pieces played by one of the world's top cello players on two of the world's top cellos, in a small theater. To the point on a Klipsch forum: I have the Columbia M2K 37867 recordings by Yo-Yo Ma. He has a second set which I will purchase, based on what I heard last night, but the sound: My RF-7s (modified crossovers) are much closer to what I heard last night than the Chorus-II (also modified crossovers). The SET amplification I use, in comparison with my other amps, adds a considerable touch of reality (or actually removes a considerable touch of artificiality). I know that solo unamplified cello is not mainstream music to many people on this forum, but for those interested in such things, the RF-7, with some serious crossover attention and SET amplification, brings a listener remarkably close to the Sanders Theater experience .. which is where I want to be. John Lithgow conducted a very interesting discussion with Yo-Yo Ma, who was at Sanders Theater to receive the "2004 Harvard Arts Medal." Leo ---------------- Leo, Wolfram, and SSH -- Lucky you, Leo! I heard Yo-Yo at the National Cathedral in DC a few years ago, was very fortunate to sit in a front row, as they amplified it and lost all performance quality and values starting only a few rows back! In my long search for truly musical reproduction, I increasingly concluded that solo strings, especially cello, are the most difficult to reproduce with full beauty, greatness, and meaning. CD reproduction was a special problem! I certainly agree -- the Bach Cello Suites are very great music, and Yo-Yo's playing is deeply absorbing. How would you compare the Strad and the Montagnana? Larry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artto Posted May 10, 2004 Share Posted May 10, 2004 ---------------- On 5/10/2004 9:14:18 AM leok wrote: Last night, at Sanders Theater at Harvard, I heard Yo-Yo Ma perform the Bach Cello Suite #1. He performed the "Prelude" first on his Baroque 1712 Stradivarius, then performed the entire 6 piece suite on his 1733 Montagnana "modern" cello. Sanders Theater is reasonably small and my wife and I had good seats. There was no amplification (congratulations to Harvard). The performance was easily all that one might hope for in such a venue: One of the world's top cello pieces played by one of the world's top cello players on two of the world's top cellos, in a small theater. ---------------- I hate you! BTW, his recording 'Solo' on SACD is magnificent. Hard to believe it's only one musician at times. I'd love to hear him perform it live. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leok Posted May 10, 2004 Author Share Posted May 10, 2004 Larry, The Stradivarius vs Montagnana was a surprise to me. We heard the Strad. first. It sounded rich and full. I though, a surprising amount of low-end power. The Montagnana seemed less powerful (I had expected it to be much louder). My wife later said she thought it was definately "louder." I actually thought it sounded more thin, but more extended especially at the top end. Possibly it was more balanced. As the suite progressed, however I found my self enjoying the balance and overall pitch definition, but also the very clear upper harmonics, woody body characteristics and bow sounds, all of which Yo-Yo Ma included in the presentation of each note. The Stradivarius used gut strings and had no support pin. The Montagnana had steel wound strings and a support pin. Yo-Yo Ma said he felt, as with most instrument "modernizations," some things are gained and some are lost, but he didn't say what. Leo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leok Posted May 10, 2004 Author Share Posted May 10, 2004 artto, You reminded me to try "Solo." The sound on that set of recordings is very close to what I remember. The smoothness, and balance of fundamentals, harmonics, and body and bow sounds is correct. Live, everything was the same, but clearer. By the way, there was a time for questions, and I asked Yo-Yo Ma how he sees recordings as pert of his approach to the communication of music. I will not try to paraphrase, but me mentioned three things: Recordings are a great educational tool, they provide a reference in time (one's understanding and involvement in a piece constantly changes), and microphone placement is a critical variable, especially in recording a live performance, if he is using the cello to project out to the audiance and the microphone(s) is close. The microphone(s) in "Solo" does not sound too close .. to me the timbral balance is correct. But "Solo" is a studio work and I guess Yo-Yo Ma could adjust his playing for the distance. Leo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkBK Posted May 10, 2004 Share Posted May 10, 2004 Leo, Thanks for the great thread! It's refreshing to hear the comparisons of Live to Recorded music. Live has always held a special place in my mind for many reasons - the experience of hearing a musician's creative process and it interacts with the audience and performance space - the emotion of the performance in it's raw state - no edits, etc. To me these are just s few of the things that make live performances great - all to rare in todays world. All the better that it was not enhanced by electronics. We all need to experience live music more frequently to keep the idea of live sound in mind when listening to recordings. If it really sounds like a cello sounds live when playing a recording, you know the system and the recording are performing the intended task - reproducing music. MarkBK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik Mandaville Posted May 10, 2004 Share Posted May 10, 2004 Great post, Leo! I just bought a Yo-Yo Ma CD yesterday, one of many we have on which he performs. What a great experience that must have been, and you have given us reason to think and ponder system approaches. I would have loved to have been there, as well. Thanks again for sharing this with us! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted May 10, 2004 Share Posted May 10, 2004 Reading about the music you guys listen to is like reading through a Biblical Greek lesson. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artto Posted May 10, 2004 Share Posted May 10, 2004 ---------------- On 5/10/2004 5:26:18 PM DeanG wrote: Reading about the music you guys listen to is like reading through a Biblical Greek lesson. ---------------- Knock it off Deannie Baby. Surely you remember that (LOUD) Tool is one of my favorites too! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik Mandaville Posted May 10, 2004 Share Posted May 10, 2004 Tool is a great band! I think the drummer is particularly good, with fantastic double bass drum work -- very fast at that! Add to the list: Audio Slave Alice in Chains Staind Sound Garden Metallica Saliva Primus Foo Fighters Yes Genesis (Peter Gabriel -- early "And Then There Were Three" period) Pink Floyd Camel Brian Eno Roxy Music Phil Manzanera 801 Brand X Gentle Giant King Crimson UK California Guitar Trio Tony Levin Pat Metheny Steve Eliovson Eberhard Weber Earthworks ....lots of stuff, not just classical. Classical music just makes me really focus and listen -- very much like jazz in certain respects. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soeren Basboell Posted May 10, 2004 Share Posted May 10, 2004 Good post, Leo, as I understand it, Ma was actually not playing on two cellos, but a viola da gamba and a 'modern' cello. The principal difference between the two is that the former has no sound post (supporting pin) and the latter has. Thus the big difference between the sound of two instruments. The sound post, french l'ame - the soul, creates a nodal point at its two ends, and it has not directly a supporting function, although you should not take it away with full string pressure on the bridge. I have myself a J.C. Kloz (so he spelled it, without a t) from 1771 and it is near to a baroque cello, but is absolutely a cello, not a viola da gamba. One of the problems in the last couple of hundred years is that that kind of music went out from the small chambers out in the large concert halls, which has pushed the musicians, including amateurs, to go for more and more sound, sometimes at the expense of beauty and ease of playing. -------------------- This winter I was at a concert, or more correctly a public rehearsal, outside Paris, where Paul Katz who played 26 years in the Cleveland Quartet worked with the Castagneri Quartet on Schubert 163 C major quintet, first movement. This was the first and probably the last time in my life, where you could get this masterpiece exactly as you wanted it, provided you could define it! The Clevelanders had played it with many important cellists, Starker, Rose, Rostropovitch and latest Ma, and and an important point is, 'the foreign cellist should always play the second cello' if not, much more rehearsal time, less satisfying result. With Ma they rehearsed 3 hours per day over a long time, played it at 6 concerts, and went then into the studio in order to record it. The did as during 'my' concert: They first played the whole thing, then they took the whole thing down to single measures trying to agree about every note. A recording manager came a little late into the studio, was shocked, and asked the recording engineer: Have these guys ever seen each other before? The two cellists also tried to compare the two celloes for the different voices, both very good and very different. Free concert and free champagne after, and we provoked them to take the second movement at last. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soeren Basboell Posted May 10, 2004 Share Posted May 10, 2004 Good post, Leo, as I understand it, Ma was actually not playing on two cellos, but a viola da gamba and a 'modern' cello. The principal difference between the two is that the former has no sound post (supporting pin) and the latter has. Thus the big difference between the sound of two instruments. The sound post, french l'ame - the soul, creates a nodal point at its two ends, and it has not directly a supporting function, although you should not take it away with full string pressure on the bridge. I have myself a J.C. Kloz (so he spelled it, without a t) from 1771 and it is near to a baroque cello, but is absolutely a cello, not a viola da gamba. One of the problems in the last couple of hundred years is that that kind of music went out from the small chambers out in the large concert halls, which has pushed the musicians, including amateurs, to go for more and more sound, sometimes at the expense of beauty and ease of playing. -------------------- This winter I was at a concert, or more correctly a public rehearsal, outside Paris, where Paul Katz who played 26 years in the Cleveland Quartet worked with the Castagneri Quartet on Schubert 163 C major quintet, first movement. This was the first and probably the last time in my life, where you could get this masterpiece exactly as you wanted it, provided you could define it! The Clevelanders had played it with many important cellists, Starker, Rose, Rostropovitch and latest Ma, and and an important point is, 'the foreign cellist should always play the second cello' if not, much more rehearsal time, less satisfying result. With Ma they rehearsed 3 hours per day over a long time, played it at 6 concerts, and went then into the studio in order to record it. The did as during 'my' concert: They first played the whole thing, then they took the whole thing down to single measures trying to agree about every note. A recording manager came a little late into the studio, was shocked, and asked the recording engineer: Have these guys ever seen each other before? The two cellists also tried to compare the two celloes for the different voices, both very good and very different. Free concert and free champagne after, and we provoked them to take the second movement at last. Søren Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bdc Posted May 10, 2004 Share Posted May 10, 2004 Your memory is wrong. The Chorus II sounds more realistic. End of story. ... just kidding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leok Posted May 10, 2004 Author Share Posted May 10, 2004 Soeren I must take some time to consider what you are saying. There may be a transitition here from acoustics to art that I am not qualified to make. I find that certain Klipsch speakers (the RF-7, modified) driven by some amlifiers (SET, ultrapath and parafeed) provide a window into acoustic performance that is effective and important. Leo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leok Posted May 11, 2004 Author Share Posted May 11, 2004 Soeren I have now re-read your note several times and think I better understand what you are saying. You understand these instruments and performers in a way that I don't begin to. Very interesting. Thanks. Leo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chops Posted May 11, 2004 Share Posted May 11, 2004 ---------------- On 5/10/2004 1:00:06 PM leok wrote: The Stradivarius used gut strings and had no support pin. The Montagnana had steel wound strings and a support pin. Yo-Yo Ma said he felt, as with most instrument "modernizations," some things are gained and some are lost, but he didn't say what. Leo---------------- Curious... What exactly do you mean by "support pin"? Are you refurring to the sound post inside the instrument? If so, that seems weird because the sound post is there for both transcending the sound from the front to the back of the cello, and to help "support" the front of the instrument from caving in due to the forces of the strings pushing down on the bridge, although not it's main function. The only other thing I can possibly think of is the end-pin that holds the cello off the floor. But if that's the case, wouldn't that mean the Stradivarius sat too low to play comfortably? Maybe that's why Yo-Yo only played one peice on that cello. In case you're wondering, I played string bass in school for seven years, and was first chair for six of those years, winning "All County" and "All State" four years in a row. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leok Posted May 11, 2004 Author Share Posted May 11, 2004 chops, I am probably using the wrong terminology. The Stradivarius did not have the pin that holds it off the floor. Yo-Yo Ma has been doing a series of concerts for which he uses a cello configureded in that way. His recording "Simply Baroque" is from that series. I'm not sure exactly what cello he uses on the recording. By the way, the cello sound on that recording is substantially brighter than anything I heard in person. Possibly it is a case of the close microphone that Yo-Yo Ma refered to. Very impressive with regards to your own musicianship. Leo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LarryC Posted May 11, 2004 Share Posted May 11, 2004 ---------------- On 5/10/2004 7:54:41 PM Soeren Basboell wrote: as I understand it, Ma was actually not playing on two cellos, but a viola da gamba and a 'modern' cello. The principal difference between the two is that the former has no sound post (supporting pin) and the latter has. Thus the big difference between the sound of two instruments. The sound post, french l'ame - the soul, creates a nodal point at its two ends, and it has not directly a supporting function, although you should not take it away with full string pressure on the bridge. ---------------- The "sound post," which all today's string instruments are supposed to have, is a short, cylindrical dowel inside the body of the instrument located at or near the foot of the bridge (which holds up the strings) between the front and the back of the instrument. It is supposed to serve as a transmitter of vibrations between the front (or top) and back (or bottom), and as a brace when heavier, stronger modern strings are used. This differs from the tail pin, which slides in and out of a cello to help hold it above the floor, and does not serve the above functions. From your description, Leo, it sounds like Yo-Yo held his Strad off the floor between his legs, in a "da Gamba" style. However, Stradivarius actually made cellos, and apparently defined the size and structure of the modern instrument. Only his very early cellos are supposed to have resembled viola da gambas, as he evolved toward the cello. The term viola do gamba seems to refer to an evolutionary renaissance and baroque ancestor of the cello. Some texts illustrate early models with frets, which disappeared later on. According to a cellist friend, v. da gambas, as a member of the viol family of strings, have no tail pin, shorter fingerboards, and a larger, narrower appearance (the only modern successor of the viol family is the very slope-shouldered string bass). It was tuned like a cello, though, so direct descent seems likely. That seems to make Ma's Strad a "cello." Besides the absence of a tail pin, it would be interesting to know whether it also lacked a sound post. That could explain why the older, weaker gut strings were used in his Strad. I'm not sure I've heard a Strad cello. A fine Strad violin like Joshua Bell's produces a sound of wonder. Larry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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