Parrot Posted June 23, 2004 Share Posted June 23, 2004 Sunnysal, Can you give me an instance of someone talking about the "shortcomings" of SET without having listened to it? And further, the amount of power an amp has is not an opinion. Would there be anything wrong with the "theoretical comparison" between a bicycle and a Camaro? Would it be valid to say that in one's "opinion" the bicycle had more power? Is Tubelover not allowed to express her skepticism that 8W would cut it for her? She has to lay out $1000 or whatever for some SET amps before she has the right to voice her doubt? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anarchist Posted June 23, 2004 Share Posted June 23, 2004 Paul, The merits of SET vs. PP can be discussed in very specific, objective fashions which do not promote flames. Subjective opinions can also be given regarding their sound. Posting about SET and ridiculing it solely to provoke its fans benefits no one. I don't care the topology, a low powered amp will not cut it for me; not with the volumes I like and not with my musical tastes. There clearly is nothing wrong with saying 1 WATT with my 89 DB speakers simply does not provide enough volume for me. If someone never listens above 100 db and has Klipschorns, SET could be a very suitable topology - based on your tastes and listening habits. Regarding tubelover, IMO, no 'she' can't. Perhaps, if you or others, or the 'real' person behind 'tubelover' wants to come out of the closet and fess up to using a second screen name to bait, flame, and generally be a nuisance, I would change my mind. I am sure the moderators love the idea that some would promote and encourage a 'respected' member to be a troll using a sock puppet YET inundate the moderators with requests to get rid of the flame wars their activities instigate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neo33 Posted June 23, 2004 Share Posted June 23, 2004 "Can you give me an instance of someone talking about the "shortcomings" of SET without having listened to it?" Paul, you mean you have "ACTUALLY" listened to SET amps? . Such a startling revelation! How long have you audition them? One minute? One Hour? One Day? One Year? And what type? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neo33 Posted June 23, 2004 Share Posted June 23, 2004 "I am sure the moderators love the idea that some would promote and encourage a 'respected' member to be a troll using a sock poppet YET inundate the moderators with requests to get rid of the flame wars their activities instigate." Wow! Such a concept boggles my mind! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neo33 Posted June 23, 2004 Share Posted June 23, 2004 "Is Tubelover not allowed to express her skepticism that 8W would cut it for her? She has to lay out $1000 or whatever for some SET amps before she has the right to voice her doubt?" Paul, you seem to be VERY understanding and protective of tubelover and perhaps, even share "her" utmost deep feelings. Hmmm, I wonder.......... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted June 23, 2004 Share Posted June 23, 2004 You guessed it Neo -- Tubelover is indeed................. Paul's wife! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blatherskite Posted June 23, 2004 Share Posted June 23, 2004 Or an underfed, overblown fish with a one track mind at a 2 channel crossing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deleteme Posted June 23, 2004 Share Posted June 23, 2004 I have a pair of Belle's and 8WPC SET Canary Audio 300B/6SL7/54UG monoblocks and I have yet to turn them up all the way. If I did crank them that loud they would push me out of the house and I would probably have to be pulled back in. I have also never had them clip on me. I was truly amazed first time I plugged them in and cranked them up. I have plugged all types of SS/tube gear into my system but current config is what I love and it won't have to be tweaked for a long time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrot Posted June 23, 2004 Share Posted June 23, 2004 ---------------- On 6/23/2004 1:42:03 PM iainunix wrote: I have a pair of Belle's and 8WPC SET Canary Audio 300B/6SL7/54UG monoblocks and I have yet to turn them up all the way. If I did crank them that loud they would push me out of the house and I would probably have to be pulled back in. I have also never had them clip on me. I was truly amazed first time I plugged them in and cranked them up. I have plugged all types of SS/tube gear into my system but current config is what I love and it won't have to be tweaked for a long time. ---------------- Why am I skeptical that you are a newbie and this is your first post? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anarchist Posted June 23, 2004 Share Posted June 23, 2004 Uh, you've spent too much time with 'tubelover' and have become jaded? Just a thought. Why is it anyone who says "My system with SET gets loud enough for me" becomes an object of ridicule or question? You have no idea what 'loud' is to them. It darn sure wouldn't be loud to me but if it works for them, why not. If it were a PP with 8 watts would your response be any different? What about if it were an EICO HF-81 with only 14 watts. Why the hostility towards newbies? We are trying to promote newbies, Paul. Encourage them to post. Don't question them. ---------------- On 6/23/2004 1:53:02 PM paulparrot wrote: Why am I skeptical that you are a newbie and this is your first post? ---------------- You might scare someone off which such initial skepticism. They may logoff and wonder why they ever tried to provide their experience. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrot Posted June 23, 2004 Share Posted June 23, 2004 I'd prefer to respond to something I've actually said, rather than justify remarks that I did not make. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deleteme Posted June 23, 2004 Share Posted June 23, 2004 This is my second post here and this may be my last. You can call me what you will. I have been listening to mostly tube gear for 15years so yes I am very biased and compared to the audiojunkies in here I am probably a newbie. I noticed more of a difference in quality with SET rather than the loudness or volume which IMHO is not lacking. It's the quality of the first watt that matters for surely the rest must follow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neo33 Posted June 23, 2004 Share Posted June 23, 2004 "I'd prefer to respond to something I've actually said, rather than justify remarks that I did not make." Here's something you've just "actually" said, Paul: "Why am I skeptical that you are a newbie and this is your first post?" But of course you're always skeptical with anything that is already SET (pun intended) in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunnysal Posted June 23, 2004 Share Posted June 23, 2004 Paul, I have seen commments recently by b-boarders who denegrate low power SET amps (lets not forget the 10-50 watt SETs out there) many of whom, I am convinced, have not auditioned SET in their systems. If I am wrong and all the trolls and flamers fighting over topology (a stupid pursuit IMHO) are people who have truely taken the time to evaluate SET and have thrown it out as underpowered junk, then I apologize. As I said, I am getting tired of this constant bickering about which topology is superior and my impression is that many comentators have not put the time in to study the issue completely. YMMV, Tony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artto Posted June 23, 2004 Share Posted June 23, 2004 I use PP. The PP amps I use are renown the world over & highly regarded by every prominent amplifier designer Ive ever spoken with even though they would love to sell me some of their own high priced gear. Their typical response is why do you want to get rid of those? Or, I always loved the sound of those amps. (I wasnt actually interested in getting rid of them, however their unique tube compliment is no longer manufactured. I have since acquired an adequate life-time supply of used & NOS) While they are PP, the circuit topology is unique in that even though they are operated in class AB, crossover distortion is virtually eliminated, even at frequency extremes such as 12Hz or 250KHz. They are also, to my knowledge, the only tube amplifiers that were custom designed to the point where the driver tubes and output tubes were custom designed, optimized and manufactured specifically for this circuit. The output transformer is also a custom made product, unique to this circuit topology, and is very difficult and time consuming to manufacture. The bias point provides class A performance up about 5 watts which is more than enough with two Klipschorns & a Belle Klipsch (15 watts total) even in my relatively spacious room since the sound pressure level doesnt fall off much, if at all, beyond 10 feet in a reverberant enclosed space the size of mine. For me its the best of all worlds. And until I find something that is definitively better under at least some conditions and remain at least equal under all others, Im staying with what Ive got. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted June 23, 2004 Share Posted June 23, 2004 "Why is it anyone who says "My system with SET gets loud enough for me" becomes an object of ridicule or question?" If it was always put forward like that, there wouldn't be a problem at all -- but sometimes it isn't. I realize "loud" is somewhat relative, but a person isn't going to get "pushed out of the house... and probably have to be pulled back in" with 8 watts. The poster may really feel that way, but I think it creates unrealistic expectations for buyers, and we need to be cognizant of the fact that we are influencing purchasing decisions. I'm not even sure if it would be right for me to say something like that about my QUADs, and they have 40 wpc -- though I think I did see Parrot's chair tip back during John Bohnam's drum solo. I still believe there isn't always a very good understanding of the importance headroom plays in the overall sound, and I think if 100db with a low power amp is chasing you out of the room -- you're probably experiencing at least some clipping -- because this is exactly the effect clipping has on the ears. I really wish we had a small inventory of "forum" amps so folks could experiment to see what they might like the best. These discussions can only be beneficial if done with some listening. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neo33 Posted June 23, 2004 Share Posted June 23, 2004 "I realize "loud" is somewhat relative" No Dean, it IS relative! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrot Posted June 23, 2004 Share Posted June 23, 2004 ---------------- On 6/23/2004 7:57:39 PM AK-4 wrote: and I think if 100db with a low power amp is chasing you out of the room -- you're probably experiencing at least some clipping -- because this is exactly the effect clipping has on the ears. ---------------- How true this is, Dean. If I turn up the volume all the way on my old TV with its built in 2-inch speaker, it hits 90dB. The distortion would drive anyone with taste out of the room. But if you play something through Khorns at 90dB, it's perfectly pleasant. Simple dB readings mean little. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted June 23, 2004 Share Posted June 23, 2004 Yeah, well maybe you need a new T.V. "DB readings mean little" is a good argument that can also be presented from the other side. Neo is right, "loud" is relative. Some don't listen like we do, so our arguments seem stupid to them. We may not be able to relate, but that doesn't invalidate their opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrot Posted June 23, 2004 Share Posted June 23, 2004 ---------------- On 6/23/2004 9:16:16 PM AK-4 wrote: "loud" is relative. ---------------- In my experience people tend to say something is too loud when what they are subjected to is distorting like crazy. When they hear something at the same level of loudness (on a SPL meter) with unnoticeable distortion, they don't mind it at all. It's the distortion that drives people out of a room, just like you said. One important factor here is being able to identify what clipping sounds like. Some people seem to think there is no clipping simply because they aren't hearing "Clip, clip, clip" through their speakers. Clipping is an objective fact, although subjectively one may not interpret the clipping correctly for what it is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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