Question for all Pioneer Elite VSX-49TXi Receiver Owners:

[picky]

Ever since I hooked-up my system for the first time a year and a half ago, I have been a bit curious with how the overall volume settings of my receiver during media playback compare with the settings of other users of the same basic equipment. Allow me to provide you with some background before I go any further:

- Room size (basement with concrete/vinyl tile floor): 10.5' W x 19' L x 7' H

- Outer Wall construction (on 2 sides) : 2 x 4 stud w/Sound Block membrane and 1/2" drywall over studs and spaced 1" from outer cinderblock wall

- Inner Wall construction (on 2 sides) : 2 x 4 double studded on 6" sole & top plate, w/Sound Block membrane woven between studs, 1/2" Homasote sound-deadening board w/1/2" drywall on top, each side of wall.

- Ceiling: Suspended grid with 2-1/4" Thick Melamine Foam (Class 1 fire rating), 90% absorbtion.

- Speaker compliment (All Klipsch):

Front L & R - RF-7, Center - RC-7, L & R Side Surrounds - RS-7 (2x), Rear Surounds - RCW-5 (2x) In-Wall, Subwoofer - RSW-15

- Receiver: Pioneer Elite VSX-49TXi (130 W per channel x 7 into 8 ohms)

- DVD Player: Pioneer Elite DV-47TXi (using i-Link (Firewire) connection to receiver for audio feed

- Speaker wire: 12-gauge twisted copper, Tributaries brand, SP-2

Note: Receiver was calibrated using the on-board MCACC calibration circuit and the microphone was situated at ear level of the primary listening position, 10 feet from the screen. The MCACC System uses the 0 db setting as its reference level. Subwoofer is set at LFE position with 80 Hz cut-off and volume control near the 2 o'clock position. Fronts are set to "Large" subwoofer set to "Plus".

When I play most movies that seem to contain about the same level of output volume (some movies are mixed at lower and higher levels), I generally seem to get optimal volume for realistic playbay with the volume control set at -10 db. t this setting there is always sufficent bass and I never get complaints from my audience that the sound it too loud. Below is a list of volume settings I have noted for various input material to listen to them at what seems to be about an equal output level (no sound meter was used - simple perception method):

Typical movies such as 'Behind Enemy Lines': -10db

Movies that seem quiet such as 'Matrix Revolutions': -7 to -8 db

Movies that seem to be louder such as 'Finding Nemo': -12 to -15db

Regular broadcast television via cable: Typically between -14 to -20 db

HDTV via Comcast Cable: Typically between -12 to -17 db

Listening to CD playback: -9 to -15 db

It was my personal perception when I initially connected the system and switched it on that these volume settings seemed a bit higher than I thought they would be considering there is 130 watts per channel available and I have a very small space. Perhaps, I am wrong?

What I would like to know from you fellow Elite/Klipsch owners is: Do you feel these settings are similar to what you all are experienceing or are they a bit high (or low)? (I believe the volume control goes up to +12 db Max.)

I do understand the logarithmic nature of amplifiers relative to volume. My receiver has never shut down nor has it ever overheated. It has never failed to deliver an impactive, unrestrained and clean performance. I am completely pleased with the receiver/speaker's sound. I simply want to make sure I am not running too close to the "safety margin" without considering larger amplification some day in the future. But, with us being happy now, I don't really see that happening unless we are currently driving things a bit too close to the edge and something frys.

Thanks, in advance, for your input.

[Budman]

i have an elite 24tx and sit 10 feet from my k-horns that are 20 feet apart, playing dire straits at -10 is 90 db with a spl meter. at 0 its 100 db. max volume is plus 12. hope this helps

[picky]

Budman54: Thanks for the info! I see that your VSX-24TX has 90-Watts per channel (5x). So, it sounds as if -10 may be a commonly-used setting. Interesting. Has yours ever overheated when set at 0 db? Do you comonly use the 0 db setting? I think I'd be afraid too. Besides, 100 db is freaking loud! LOL!

I will correct my post above to reflect the correct max volume of +12 db. Thanks again.

[WS65711]

Picky -

My room is larger (16x27x8), but my speakers are smaller RF5/RC35/RS35.

Also, I'm only using my 49TXi as a 5.1 setup. I keep my subs set about

2db or 3db hot, and the surrounds about 1db or 2db hot. My room is

pretty reflective. Two walls are sheetrock, one wall is glass, one is

brick, and the floor is hardwood. The seating is leather, so I don't

think it absorbs much sound either.

Like you, I notice that some movies (as well as some CD's) are recorded

considerably louder than others. My normal listening level (according to

the output scale on my 49TXi) ranges between -20db and -16db for normal

DVD watching (with my wife). Much louder than that, and she will complain.

Sometimes, I'll watch a movie alone or with a friend with the volume set a

little higher (maybe -12db according to the 49). When the wife is out,

sometimes I'll listen to CD's at levels of -10db to 0db. Money for Nothing

sounds quite good at 0. I can't recall ever having ventured into the "+"

range with this receiver.

I have an SPL meter, so if you really want to know I could take some

measurements (when my wifes not home) of the DVD's you mentioned, since I

have all three of them.

Dave

[picky]

WS65711: Dave, if you could run that sound-level test you mentioned on those 3 movies, that would be awesome! Thanks!

I still get a little nervous when I allow the volume setting to approach the 0 db level. The closest I have run to zero is -7 db. I have not yet learned the limits of my system as I have had not reason to push it far enough to find out. I think I can probably live within the limits of the settings I have used thus far as it sounds spectacular. I think the Pioneer Elite/Klipsch Reference marriage is a good one!

Despite having the cement floor and drywall on the walls, I do have a lot of absorption going on in our room. Mainly in the foam ceiling and the large, over-stuffed theater recliners. There seems to be very little reflection in the room, even from the walls because I created a column on each side that juts-out about a foot on each side wall just a couple of feet in front of the right and left-front channels. This appears to block any noticable early reflections.

Until I am able to get a hold of a sound-level meter to measure the actual levels, it is my assumption that the sound in our room is actually a lot louder than we perceive, possible because it sounds so clean and clear.

[dkp]

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On 7/20/2004 1:10:53 PM picky wrote:

Until I am able to get a hold of a sound-level meter to measure the actual levels, it is my assumption that the sound in our room is actually a lot louder than we perceive, possible because it sounds so clean and clear.

----------------

Picky-if you get up this way, let me know and you can borrow mine. Otherwise you can pick them up and the ratshack for about $30 for the analog version.

David

[MrMcGoo]

Picky and Dave,

You are both running your 49s at a much higher level that I am. The typical range that I listen at is between -40 and -20 for RF-7s etc. Most 5.1 movies are at -25 to -30. My room is 16x24 and heavily carpeted.

I use very heavy speaker wire and outboard amplification. However, volume settings have not changed as a result of the outboard amp or the speaker wire.

The power cords on the 49TXi fit too loosely IMO. I added a power cord that fits snugly in the socket on the 49. A lot of added detail appeared when the snug power cord was added. My theory is that there is no magic in the power cord, but there is better contact and better power transfer as a result.

I also use a Panamax 4400 that does not limit current to my amps. A 20 amp circuit is required for the 4400.

When I added a Sunfire CG II amp, the bass became so intense that it easily shakes the whole house. (The RSW-15 has been turned down a bit.) The bass is very tight; it is easy to tell the different types of drums being used in the recording.

Bill

[picky]

dkp: David, that is really nice of you to offer to lend your test meter to me. Thanks. My troiuble is that I actually own one.....I simply cannot find it. I think I must have left it over at my friend's studio in Riverview. He has some much sound gear that I'm gonna have to go over there and pick through everything until I find that sucker! But, thanks again David. You and I do need to get together soon and talk some serious audio stuff!

Mr. McGoo: Very interesting post, Bill. I totally agree with your analogy on the power cord connector. And you are right; I agree there is no magic there, but a poor connection is a poor connection. May I ask which power chord you purchased and from whom? I'd like to try that, too.

Your volume settings are so different that they are almost hard to believe. Wow! I am using a LCR-2400 Line Conditioner by Tripp-Lite and it supports 20-amps. I have a 20-amp home run supplying power to it and it does not seem to damp nor hold back my system. I have the difference with the receiver feeding directly from the home run and from the LCR-2400, and there is no audible difference, nor is there a difference in the volume settings. I am thoroughly satisfied with the quality of sound I am getting.

The 12-gauge Tributaries SP-2 cable I am using on all speakers is what I would call "very heavy". My friends all refer to it as "jumper cables" such as is used to jump-start a car.

I certainly appreciate your well-detailed information. Thanks. But, I cannot explain the huge differences in our settling. I do not use external amplification, but you mention that was not a factor when using the internal amps. Hmmmm. It would be interesting to compare our individual sound levels to deteremine if both you and I subjectively consider the same levels to be either "loud" or "quiet". Thanks again, Bill!

Damn! I gotta find my sound meter!!

-Glenn

[MrMcGoo]

picky,

Tonight I will do a little investigation of my listening levels with my sound meter. I will measure 5.1 movies and 5.1 SACDs.

My seating is close to the walls. I will measure the sound levels on the C scale with the slow response at the listeneing positions and a few feet into the room.

As people get older, the threshhold of hearing increases (higer db levels are required to hear anything) and the threshhold of pain decreases. The saying that "if it's too loud, you are too old" has a basis in fact.

Bill

[picky]

Bill: Interesting theory. However, you are 5 years my senior (according to your profile) if that actually makes a difference, yet your volume settings are far lower than mine. (???) That is a contradiction of your theory, isn't it?

I am very fortunate in the fact that I continue to have better-than-average hearing (had it checked recently) despite my age (52) and my years as a musician and soundman in a rock band and working around military jet planes (I always wore my hearing protection). Yet, I am able to detect sounds that my wife (49) does not hear at all, especially in the very high frequency ranges. (Make the voices stop! )

My primary seating is away from room boundaries (walls), save for one seat, and about 10 feet from the main 3 front channels.

Thanks for offering to take the measurements of your system. That's great!

[WS65711]

Yeah, Bill's numbers (especially the -40db) seem very low

to me also. Bill's room size is fairly close to mine, but

I know that -40 on my system is really a low volume level.

Picky, my main seating is about the same distance from the

front three speakers as yours.

Conceivably, some of the differences we are seeing could be

due to differing output levels from the source device, in

addition to the source material. But I see that Picky has

the 47Ai player connected by FireWire, the same as mine. I

don't know what player Bill has.

I will try to get some time to do some SPL measurements on

Friday.

Dave

Edit: I just looked at MrMcGoo's profile and I see that he

also has the 47Ai, so scratch that idea . . .

[MrMcGoo]

Hello to all,

I have been measuring SPL's on SACDs with the volume set at -25 to -30 on the 49TXi. I am using the DACs in the 49 via i.link. I am using a digital Rat Shack SPL meter.

Ravel's Bolero (Telarc) at -25 in muti-channel SACD starts out a very faint in the low 50s an builds steadily and ends at about an 80 db peak. The Telarc Celtic Spectaculer at -30 is usually in the mid 70s for SPL.

The one movie that I have tried in DD 5.1 at -30 gives dialog in quiet scenes in the mid 50s, typical dialog is in the mid 60s and loud dance scenes with music are in the upper 70s with 82 db peaks.

SPL levels do not change appreciably with changes in position until I get very close to the mains. I suspect that 7.1 (SACD +SX) has something to do with this fact.

The power cables that fit my 49TXi and Sunfire the tightest are Monster Powerline 200s that appear to be about 12 awg. I got about 20% off of retail, but the price is still too high.

Line voltage is currently at 112 volts due to refrigeration being run in homes at dinner time locally. Later tonight the line voltage will climb to about 117 volts and the system's dynamic peaks will improve very slightly.

More later.

Bill

[picky]

Bill: Thanks for such a well-detailed post. It is information such as yours that makes this forum so much more valuable to us all.

I am starting a 1 week vacation after work this Friday (tomorrow) and I am going try and pick up my sound meter at the studio and take my own measurements over the next week. I will post the results here as you have. I hope to finsh all of the work I have left to do in my theater over the next week. It will be wonderful to finally put this 23-month project to rest.

Yep, I've been watching our incoming voltages "brown" a bit around dinner time lately, too. It was 92 degrees here in the Detroit area yesterday. It was so humid that you could almost cut the air with a knife! Yuck! And where was I after work? Outside cutting my grass and working in our "furnace" of a garage staining some cabinet doors for our theater: Thank goodness for air conditioning, once I came in the house!

I can't wait to see if my own perceived "loud" levels equal yours or, as I suspect, are higher. From reading your levels, with your designated highs being in the 70 to 82 db peak range, I suspect that I prefer my sound levels to be appreciably higher than you do. If they are, that would explain the difference in our volume control settings. You see? This is where tastes and subjectivity enter the mix. That is what helps make this hobby so facinating, yet remain so ellusive.

-Glenn

[WS65711]

Picky & Bill -

I just spent about 20 minutes doing some quick testing.

I used chapter 6 of the "Behind Enemy Lines" DVD, set to 5.1 DTS.

49TXi Measured

Setting Range Comment

------- ---------- --------------------------------------

-20db 80 to 94db Not loud enough to enjoy the movie

-15db 84 to 98db Good acceptable volume, WAF is OK

-10db 90 to 104db Very loud, but not TOO loud. Not good for WAF

I used the same C-Scale and Slow Response settings as Bill used for his tests.

I measured at my primary viewing/listening position, 11' from screen and center channel,

12.5' from the fronts and subs. Surrounds are 9' from the SPL meter. I had the meter set

at a 45 degree angle pointed toward the screen. I didn't measure my house voltage,

but it's about 97 here today and the heat index is 110. All the A/C's around the neighborhood

are running at max I'm sure (unless they're broken)!

Dave

[MrMcGoo]

Dave and Picky,

I am listening to the movie Independance Day; it has lots of bass. The source is a Sony mega changer with sound via digital coax. I am listening at -28 db on the 49. Soft dialog is in the 50s. Normal dailog is in the 60s. The peaks run as high as 90 db.

With the 49 set to -20, the dialog is in the 70s. The peaks are as high as 98 db with the explosion of the White House. The averarge at -20 during the blasts is in the low 90s. Since the blasts are in the lower frequencies, the Rat Shack meter is a bit below actual. Unfortunately, there is no way to tell what the cotrrection factor should be.

The air combat scenes are running in the 90s with the 49TXi set at -20. The sound peak in the early air combat scene was 103 db C weighted FAST. (I use the fast setting for measuring peaks.)

My RSW-15 is set at 9:00 o'clock, but the 49TXi has the subwoofer output at +6.5 db (>50% above normal) to do a better job with automatic turn on.

Bill

[picky]

Wow, you guys! Your numbers differ greatly. I was unsuccessful in gaining acess to my friend's studio over the weekend to look for my meter. He's on an out-of-town gig. So, because I am home on vacation this week, I'll see if I can run over there and look. If I cannot get it, I'm just going to go buy a digital one at Rat Shack and be done with it.

Dave's comments sound closer to my reaction to that scene number 6 ('Behind Enemy Lines') with the setting's he'd mentioned althouth, I think my WAF tolerance may be slightly higher. LOL I did not find the movie enjoyable at 47 setting -20 either. At -15db it was bettr but lack-luster. At -10 db it sounded realistic but not too loud and that is the target I usually shoot for. I'm afraid I cannot test for 'Independance Day' right now as I do not own it. Perhaps, my son does and I can borrow it? That kid has a "million" movies!

[picky]

Well, I finally found my sound meter (Sears Craftsman Digital) at the studio and brought it home! I did my testing this evening and here are the results:

All readings were taken with the meter set to Auto-ranging and Fast Reaction time. Meter is 10 feet from front mains.

------------------------------------

Speedway (Mario Andretti/Paul Newman-narrator) IMAX DVD

Pioneer Receiver VSX-49TXi Volume Setting: -12 db

Scene #5: Racing Tests

A weighted Max: 100.4 db

C weighted Max: 108.3 db

------------------------------------

Behind Enemy Lines DVD

Pioneer Receiver VSX-49TXi Volume Setting: -10 db

Scenes #4: Christmas Recon through Scene #6

A weighted: 101.2 db

C weighted: 120.8 db

------------------------------------

Open Range DVD

Pioneer Receiver VSX-49TXi Volume Setting: -10 db

Scene #14: The Gunfight Begins

A weighted: 101.1 db

C weighted: 108.8 db

------------------------------------

[Ou8thisSN]

hmm... i always listen to the denon 3803 at around or at 0db in our 20 x 20 x 8 foot room...

[michael hurd]

Picky: The movies that seem quieter, and the receiver volume has to be raised higher to compensate, actually have a higher dynamic range - like Monsters, inc. It also depends on the format that is used - dts, or dolby digital, and also any additional processing in the receiver.

The Marantz receiver I own has different maximum levels ( + 9, and + 15?), depending on the source, and the decoding (pcm vs. dd vs. dts). There are times when I have used the volume up to + 3 db, listening to cd's. The people across the street came outside with their coffee cups at suppertime to listen to Supertramp. They must have thought there was a free concert at the park.

With slm readings, C-wtd approaching 118 db peaks at the listening position on the couch possible, I have to excercise restaint in order to get along with the girls downstairs ( relatives ) and also the neighbours. Lucky the one next door on the uphill side is half-deaf!

[picky]

Michael:

Yeah, I understand what you are saying about the dynamic range differences among DVDs, but some DVDs are just, plain recorded much too low in gain at the get-go. I wasn't aware of the receiver's ability to shift maximum available output level according to which input source is selected! Now, I wonder if my Pioneer Elite shifts like that Marantz of yours? I'll have to experiment. That would explain why the volume seems so low when I am playing-back a vinyl LP and the volume setting is -10 db, yet movies are loud at that setting! And, to think I thought something was horribly wrong. I must admit, I am a bit leery of venturing into the "+ db" realm of my volume settings! That's sort of unknown territory for me. Thanks for the info, Michael. Next time the wind is blowing out of the north up there in Thunder Bay, crank that baby up and aim those speakers south; I'll let you know if I can hear you! Take care!

-Glenn