maxg Posted July 28, 2004 Share Posted July 28, 2004 A friend brought a box set Verdi Opera round to my house the other evening, along with some other titles. The Verdi in question is: Il Trovatore Carreras/Ricciarelli/Masurok Royal Opera House Covent Garden Colin Davis Philips 6769 063 Holland Apparently it has never been played although it was not sealed. The thing is that written on the top corner of the box is "digital recording". Oh crap!! I hate digital recordings. We played it anyway. Stunning!! Another tenent of Max's absolute guide to audio up in smoke. Not all digital recordings on vinyl are bad after all - I am a moron - how many fine recordings have passed me by because of this stupid misconception?? A problem however - the sort of problem that seemingly only applies to me in audiophile circles. The dynamic range of this record is simply huge. I have no idea how big - but at my normal listening levels - in my living room - at night - with absolutely minimal noise floor - I cant hear the quiet bits. Now OK - the normal listening levels are in reality the levels I can listen to without waking mother and child - but this is the first record I have ever owned where this has happened. Could this be related to the fact that this is a digital recording or is it simply coincidence? How big can the dynamic range on vinyl really be? I was under the impression that the main "advantage" of CD over vinyl was its additional capabilities in this area. Its a funny thing but one of the records I own is a test record from Clearaudio. One of the tracks on that is a dynamic range test - with warnings all over it boasting a dynamic range of 30 dB. This Opera is hugely greater than that - I dont know how much yet - I will try to meter it at some time - but 50 dB or more would not surprise me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxg Posted July 28, 2004 Author Share Posted July 28, 2004 I almost forgot - on the subject of digital recordings. Amongst the other titles brought was: Elgar Violin Concerto Nigel Kennedy London Philharmonic Vernon Handley EMI 41 2058 1 UK Digital Another super recording - and a totally new piece to me (isnt that nice when that happens - its beautiful - a match for my much favoured Cello Concerto of Elgar's). Fortunately this one does not have the dynamic range issue. For anyone else that does not know the piece - highly recommended! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edwinr Posted July 28, 2004 Share Posted July 28, 2004 I'm not sure what the dynamic range of vinyl is. But I do know that it sounds very wide range. I guess when pushed, vinyl compresses dynamic range gracefully, unlike digital which turns to hash when pushed too hard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richinlr Posted July 28, 2004 Share Posted July 28, 2004 As for dynamic range on vinyl, try to find a copy of the old Telarc recording of the 1812 Overture with live cannons. Before you put on the TT notice that you can SEE the cannon shots in the grooves - each cannon shot has a near right angle jog of about 1/32 of an inch. Now put it on your TT with the low compliance MC cartridge that you spent a bomb for and have been very satisfied with up until now. Watch the tonearm literally jump up in the air when it hits the cannons or if it doesn't jump up in the air, all you get for cannons is a funny sounding "phhht". I have no idea what the dynamic range of this recording is but I would bet that it surpasses the digital stuff by at least 20 dB. I also have no clue where the TT is that will play it properly... It truly is a TT killer... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrot Posted July 28, 2004 Share Posted July 28, 2004 ---------------- On 7/28/2004 2:55:48 AM maxg wrote: The dynamic range of this record is simply huge. I have no idea how big - but at my normal listening levels - in my living room - at night - with absolutely minimal noise floor - I cant hear the quiet bits. ---------------- It is sad to think of all the people involved in that recording and mastering who fought hard to get a realistic dynamic range, only to have you wish it were a run of the mill, compressed release. You could get a compressor/limiter. Other than that, you could use headphones at night. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxg Posted July 28, 2004 Author Share Posted July 28, 2004 One day Paul we will discuss your use of adjectives. "Realistic" dynamic range. Hmmm. Kinda depends on what you mean there. I have been to many a classical concert in my time - and only in the poorer halls, with lesser seating have I had this much difficulty in making out an individual instrument. As a slight aside I went to the Bob Fosse show that is doing the rounds here in Athens at the moment (you know - Cabaret, Chicago and all that Jazz). My brother in law got the seats and as he is as tight a a ducks bum - they were right at the top of the open air, tradionally laid out, Greek theatre. We were so far from the stage I could hardly make anything out - it would be impossible to pick out any of the performers in a line up after the show, but the sound travelled well enough. We heard everything - as far as I can tell - that we were supposed to. Highest SPL (according to the meter on a mobile phone) - 85 dB. Of course these are very special threatres we have over here - kinda like horn loaded threatre when you look at it. 2,500 year old horns - now there is a thought. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jt1stcav Posted July 28, 2004 Share Posted July 28, 2004 Kinda reminds me of the Red Rocks Amphitheatre just in the foothills of the Rocky Mountains outside of Denver, CO. With its natural rock cliff formations on either side of the auditorium seats, you could be seated at the very top end 100 yards away and shout to someone on the stage, and be heard perfectly! Very good acoustics indeed! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Garrison Posted July 28, 2004 Share Posted July 28, 2004 Maxg, It's not due to the fact that's it a digital master, but rather to careful adherence to proper production and engineering techniques and values. The truth of the matter is that the vast, Vast, VAST majority of recordings, whether analog, digital, tape, direct to disk, whatever, do not begin to use the total dynamic range that the media is capable of supporting. Pop and rock are pretty much hopeless (typically 10dB dynamic range or less on pop stuff - the recent Carlos Santana album was measured by John Atkinson has having, like, 3dB on some cuts) but even classical is not well served. Capturing even 40dB range during a performance is very difficult, and requires very, very careful attention to mics, mic preamps, gain levels at every interface, and a lot of hard work and experience. When you do stumble across one of the diamonds in the rough, a recording that actually uses most of the dynamic range that an LP or CD or DVD or SACD or ABCDEFG will support, it can be quite stunning. The JVC series of XRCD discs is one of the few that consistently meet this challenge. If you've never heard one, you might well find it illuminating. They don't use any special magic or proprietary codecs or non-standard bit rates or anything - just extremely careful attention to all the little details. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artto Posted July 28, 2004 Share Posted July 28, 2004 Ray is quite right. One of the reasons I built my dedicated listening room was not just to get the acoustics as good as possible, but also to keep out unwanted noise. There is a surprising amount of ambient noise present in most homes, whether it be from things like forced air movement (HVAC), appliances like the refrigerator (normally runs 80% of the time regardless of efficiency), and even outside noise that infiltrates. We just get used to it. I've felt for a long time that most people play they're systems way to loud to (unknowingly)compensate for this. It's amazing how much low level detail and ambience is present on many recordings, especially classical and live-in-concert. In most typical listening environments we tend to turn things up to a level where, when the really loud parts come along, it's unrealistically loud. There's a reason you can hear a pin drop a hundred feet away in a good auditorium. Great auditoriums and concert halls aren't very quiet just for the hell of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxg Posted July 29, 2004 Author Share Posted July 29, 2004 Ray, I have half a dozen XRCD's or so - a few of them the Three Blind Mice titles which are as good as any digital recording I have heard. Cant say I remember the dynamic range being a problem on those. Then again it has been a while since I have played them and in those days (pre-daughter) volume levels were higher in the house. Actually since making this post I realised that my background noise levels are rather higher than usual at nights due to the chirruping Cricket things (not Crickets exactly - cant remember their name in English) that sing all night outside the window. Therefore I will need to re-visit this recording again at a quieter time just to make sure it is a difficult to set volume for as I orignially thought. I still cant help feeling, however, that beyond a certain point, extended dynamic range is simply not the key issue and can actually be more of a pain than it is worth. Above all else - realism / drama / effect / impact and so on - I want to hear the music. If I cant then the effect is lost. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrot Posted July 29, 2004 Share Posted July 29, 2004 ---------------- On 7/29/2004 2:40:41 AM maxg wrote: Above all else - realism / drama / effect / impact and so on - I want to hear the music. If I cant then the effect is lost. ---------------- You can't achieve this when other people are sleeping and you don't want to wake them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxg Posted July 29, 2004 Author Share Posted July 29, 2004 ---------------- On 7/29/2004 7:10:46 AM paulparrot wrote: ---------------- On 7/29/2004 2:40:41 AM maxg wrote: Above all else - realism / drama / effect / impact and so on - I want to hear the music. If I cant then the effect is lost. ---------------- You can't achieve this when other people are sleeping and you don't want to wake them. ---------------- So as I dont like headphones I can choose between maximizing the experience I can enjoy or not listening to music at all. (Waking everyone up with louder volumes equates to not listening at all - well not for long anyway). If maximizing the experience means listening to a reduced dynamic range - so be it. I am still a music first - system second kind of guy. I started listening to music as a kid under the covers with a transistor radio jammed up against my ear and loved it. I can enjoy Beethoven's Violin Concerto listening this way virtually as much as I can with higher volume levels. Generally it takes about 1 minute or less to forget all about systems - volumes and the rest and get into the music. That, I think, is what it is really all about - and it still sounds glorious! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audio Flynn Posted July 29, 2004 Share Posted July 29, 2004 ---------------- On 7/29/2004 2:40:41 AM maxg wrote: Above all else - realism / drama / effect / impact and so on - I want to hear the music. If I cant then the effect is lost. ---------------- You can't achieve this when other people are sleeping and you don't want to wake them. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++ THat is 50% of the reason to have a decent pair of headphones. AND I get to wake up my kids now! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colterphoto1 Posted July 29, 2004 Share Posted July 29, 2004 ---------------- On 7/28/2004 12:58:26 PM artto wrote: There is a surprising amount of ambient noise present in most homes, whether it be from things like forced air movement (HVAC), appliances like the refrigerator (normally runs 80% of the time regardless of efficiency), and even outside noise that infiltrates. Much agreed Artto, that is why I love radient (hot water baseboard) heating. It's efficient, comfortable, and mostly, QUIET. Nothing like that big blower kicking on, rumbling the house and forcing scorched air at you. If it's good enough for Bob Vila and Boston weather, it'll work in Indiana. Now, what to do about those trucks outside.HMMMM, methinks window replacement might be the trick! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxg Posted July 29, 2004 Author Share Posted July 29, 2004 AF, Tried headphones for a good while as the obvious alternative. Just a different set of compromises to me. All the volume I could want (good) but no soundstaging (or bizzare soundstaging) and a rather detached feel to the music (bad). Worst of all - any instrument way off on one side of the soundstage only comes through that side's speaker. This bothers me immensely as only one ear hears it. This is not what happens with a normal stereo - even if the sound is only coming out of one speaker both ears hear it. Therefore - my chosen compromise - low volumes. In fact my Stax headphones are out on permanent loan to a friend. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audio Flynn Posted July 29, 2004 Share Posted July 29, 2004 MAX, Phones are an imperfect solution. Soundstage is not real. Would be cool to try phones with "bass shakers" attached to your favorite chair though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Klipsch RF7 Posted July 30, 2004 Share Posted July 30, 2004 Alot of the classical label digital recordings are actually not that bad, the older ones seem a little compressed around the late 80's early 90's era, but anything recorded 95 and up seems to have a nice dynamic range, albiet from the higher end labels such as Phillips classical, Deutsche Grammophon, Archiv, etc.... I will have to purchase those CD's listed and try them out and see how they sound, they should be mastered nicely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrot Posted July 30, 2004 Share Posted July 30, 2004 Max is looking at this different than most people. He wants his recordings *more* compressed so that he can hear quiet portions while playing quietly at home at night, and hear quiet portions in the car without the loud parts being too loud. Did you ever buy all those SACDs you were going to months ago? Like any of them in particular? I just recently bought a fantastic "new" SACD of The Planets on MFSL, a lyrical performance by Susskind/St. Louis. http://elusivedisc.com/prodinfo.asp?number=MOBSAM4005&variation=&aitem=7&mitem=11 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Klipsch RF7 Posted July 30, 2004 Share Posted July 30, 2004 Hi Paul, Yes, I did purchase a few of them. I have the Holst Planets on the Sony label with Leonard Bernstein conducting the New York Philharmonic to Gustav Holst "The Planets" and Benjamin Britten "Four Sea Interludes." That seems to be a nice recording, I bet it sounds wonderful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrot Posted July 30, 2004 Share Posted July 30, 2004 ---------------- On 7/30/2004 7:01:21 PM Klipsch RF7 wrote: I have the Holst Planets on the Sony label with Leonard Bernstein conducting the New York Philharmonic to Gustav Holst "The Planets" and Benjamin Britten "Four Sea Interludes." That seems to be a nice recording, I bet it sounds wonderful. ---------------- They are totally different approaches, each equally valid. Both well worth having. Susskind's is more mystical. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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