kenratboy Posted August 13, 2004 Share Posted August 13, 2004 I bought AR's best surge protecter (wow, what a day ) and have a question. While the unit looks to be VERY nice, I noticed that the AR and Monster power centers DIE when they get a big surge. I paid very little for the unit (discount) and I don't really care if I have to replace it. However, what about the big guns, like the hi-end Monster and Panamax power centers - do those DIE when you get a big power surge, or do they have some sort of self-reseting or replaceable part that allows it to keep working? I was not aware that surge protectors actually DIED when you had a big power surge. Anything I need to know? The unit I bought is rated for 2150 joules, which seems pretty good. My old one was rated for like 250!!! I bought this one: http://www.araccessories.com/Cultures/en-US/Recoton+AR/Product+Catalog.htm?ModelNum=AP08S&CatalogNavigationBreadCrumbs=Recoton%20-%20Acoustic%20Research;Power%20Conditioning&ProductDetail=YES Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scp53 Posted August 13, 2004 Share Posted August 13, 2004 good question but can't help, sorry. I look forward to who ever replies... I d like to know too Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scp53 Posted August 14, 2004 Share Posted August 14, 2004 bump Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jabez Scratch Posted August 14, 2004 Share Posted August 14, 2004 Yes, they do "die" or as Monster says: they "commit suicide" and die so that your components may live. I have a Monster power centre: http://www.futureshop.ca/marketing/vendor_monster_cable/proddetailpc.asp?logon=&langid=EN&dept=2&WLBS=fsweb15&sku_id=0665000FS10034062&catid=10677&newdeptid=2&PCName=Vendor_Monster_Main I think that the super high end ones survive like this one: http://www.futureshop.ca/marketing/vendor_monster_cable/proddetailpc.asp?logon=&langid=EN&dept=2&WLBS=fsweb15&sku_id=0665000FS10030342&catid=10677&newdeptid=2&PCName=Vendor_Monster_Main Either way, I can't believe how good my Monster power centre is for line cleaning: my audio and especically improved noticeably. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrMcGoo Posted August 14, 2004 Share Posted August 14, 2004 The series type surge supressors survive indefinitely. Zero Surge, Brickwall and Surgex are of that type. Bill Edited for typo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scp53 Posted August 14, 2004 Share Posted August 14, 2004 could you give us some links/sites of these "infinitly" surviving surge supressors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boomer9911 Posted August 14, 2004 Share Posted August 14, 2004 yes...your typical Rat Shack power bar dies after the first hit. As a consumer your not told this, the "reset button" is a joke as far as I'm concerned, they are designed to blow and properly, but they do it once and toast. People don't realize it, same with computer power bars, it gets surged and history. as they ole saying goes, you get what you pay for, I myself use the Monster HTPS7000 and it does the job quite well....especially cleaning up the video(cable)signal through the wall in an apartment complex, sound wise, welllllllll...no difference audio wise. Previously I lived in the High Arctic(Canada)where the power was supplied by diesel generator. 1 full time, 1 standby, 1 for parts for 5000+ people. The power went out all the time, more like a lottery of when and how many times....but will say, I used the Adcom ACE-515 Enhancer at that time(old gear)and ny equipment was "never" fried or damaged, bravo Adcom. That puppy shut everything down first like stated and then itself, did the job.....just a thought.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minn_male42 Posted August 15, 2004 Share Posted August 15, 2004 series mode surge protectors will never "die" from a surge.... here are the companies that produce them currently.... http://www.surgex.com http://www.brickwall.com http://www.zerosurge.com and the two newer models from adcom http://www.adcom.com/surgesupressors.htm and furman sound recently came out with their series II models which are the lowest cost series mode protectors currently available.... http://www.furmansound.com/pro/pwr_cond_seq/cond/Series%202.htm cheers! p.s...... all MOV based protectors will eventually wear out (die) from surges....small ones all add up or one big one.... they will all die.... and "joule" ratings are lifetime heat absorption ratings....once that lifetime rating is reached, your "surge protector" is nothing more than a fancy outlet strip..... monster, panamax, etc..... (very expensive power strips).... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malcolm Posted August 15, 2004 Share Posted August 15, 2004 A joule rating is not a "lifetime" rating. It is the amount of energy that can be handled at one time. And it is pretty much meaningless because different manufacturers use different ways of computing it. MOVs do indeed degrade over time and eventually die. Where I live, they last a long time. That may not be the case in other parts of the country. What does seem to fail because of surges are simple things like lamp dimmers, compact flourescent lamps, and the occasional motor, etc. The failures I have seen in cheap MOV based surge suppressors were failures of the indicating lamps or resistors feeding them, not the MOVs. MOVs do have their place. MOVs make whole house TVSSs affordable. Just think what it would cost for chokes that could handle the typical 200A service let alone the 400A service a lot of folks are putting in nowadays. It would essentially be a whole house isolation transformer. I guess one could put one of the devices referenced above on each circuit, but that too would be expensive. Those of you who use gear with big transformers in the power supply and not much between them and the line except a power switch can probably get away without any surge protection on that gear. The transformers do a good job all by themselves. I worked for a company that built small computers before switching power supplies became common. A customer suffered a direct lightning hit. When the power was restored, the computer came back up just fine. Heck, even the switching power supplies used in computers are pretty much immune to most surges. Don't most consumer audio/HT components have MOVs in their power supplies now? Do we even need anything in front of them? One can buy a lot of cheap MOV based surge suppressors for the price of one expensive non-MOV based unit. Where the breakeven point is depends on your circumstances. FWIW I have a whole house TVSS at the service entrance and a few Isobar Ultra units, primarily for the convenience of being able to switch off several pieces of equipment at one time, and because I wouldn't have enough outlets in the closet without rewiring. Replacement MOV modules are available for the whole house TVSS. The Isobar units were about $10 each on eBay. And I can replace the MOVs if they ever fail. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minn_male42 Posted August 16, 2004 Share Posted August 16, 2004 "And I can replace the MOVs if they ever fail." and how will you know when they fail???? some of the higher end MOV based surge protectors do have circuit checks to indicate a failed MOV.... but they do not indicate when an MOV has been heated many times by small surges...everytime an MOV is heated it weakens.... your 2 year old MOV surge protector could be like brand new inside or it could be ready to fail on the next minor surge.... you have no way of knowing..... i should have stated that the joule rating is a maximum rating for the life of the MOV.... once a surge exceeds the rating of the MOV, then the MOV can and usually will fail at anytime..... a 200 joule MOV will not function properly once it has received a surge at or above that joule rating...... personally, i will use a series mode protector to protect my equipment..... i know that the protection is there.... the same level of protection as the day i purchased it..... that is a statement that cannot be made with any surge protector that is using MOV's for a basis of it's "protection"... and now that furman has a 15 amp series mode protector available for under $120 - why in the world would you risk your equipment with questionable MOV protectors???? your choice.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jhawk92 Posted August 16, 2004 Share Posted August 16, 2004 Ken- I'll agree with Minnmale on this one. I posed a similar question about 4-5 months ago over in the Tech Questions section, so check it out. Also, check out my responses to the post "Power Conditioner Choice..." also on this forum. I'll bump it up for you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malcolm Posted August 16, 2004 Share Posted August 16, 2004 In the case of the Isobar units, they have a LED indicator that goes out when the protection circuit fails, and another one that goes on when it detects a fault. The whole house TVSS has lights on both 120V legs. Another indication might be a tripped circuit breaker. When MOVs reach the end of their useful life, they leak more current. Ultimately a circuit breaker should trip before they actually die. And if they do die, they will almost certainly trip that breaker. So I am not concerned about losing any equipment behind them. And considering that in my environment MOV based units last a very long time, if I do lose a piece of equipment, it will be time to replace it anyway. My setup gives me what is sometimes called concentric rings of protection. The outer ring is the whole house TVSS which has really beefy MOVs. The big surges coming in on the service drop are handled by that. Anything that gets through, and anything generated in house like surges generated by motors, etc, gets handled by smaller units in front of the equipment. And most of the equipment behind them isn't very sensitive anyway, either because of the use of MOVs in the power supply or other design features. I have literally never had a piece of expensive electronic equipment fail because of a surge in the 35 or so years I have had any. But I had lots of cheap stuff fail before putting in the whole house TVSS, and nothing since. Of course, what works for me may not work for you. That is why there are different products competing for our dollars. You pays your money and takes your chances. BTW if any of you have cable, a satellite antenna, a regular TV antenna, or a phone line plugged into any of your audio/HT/computer equipment be aware that these all need to be surge protected, including antenna rotor cables, particularly if you are in an area that gets a lot of lightning strikes. I remember a thread on another forum from a guy who was unlucky enough to have a surge find its way into his house through his sprinkler wiring when a lightning bolt hit in his yard. None of the kind of surge protection this thread has considered can deal with a direct, nearby powerline strike. But appropriate protection can prevent a lightning induced surge from entering by a path other than your electrical service drop. Picture this scenario: lightning strikes nearby, your surge suppressor stops anything that comes in on the power line, but a surge is induced in your cable TV drop, enters your HDTV decoder, then your expensive plasma display, your A/V receiver and everything connected to it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minn_male42 Posted August 16, 2004 Share Posted August 16, 2004 ---------------- On 8/16/2004 9:01:00 PM Malcolm wrote: In the case of the Isobar units, they have a LED indicator that goes out when the protection circuit fails, and another one that goes on when it detects a fault. The whole house TVSS has lights on both 120V legs. Another indication might be a tripped circuit breaker. When MOVs reach the end of their useful life, they leak more current. Ultimately a circuit breaker should trip before they actually die. And if they do die, they will almost certainly trip that breaker. So I am not concerned about losing any equipment behind them. And considering that in my environment MOV based units last a very long time, if I do lose a piece of equipment, it will be time to replace it anyway. My setup gives me what is sometimes called concentric rings of protection. The outer ring is the whole house TVSS which has really beefy MOVs. The big surges coming in on the service drop are handled by that. Anything that gets through, and anything generated in house like surges generated by motors, etc, gets handled by smaller units in front of the equipment. And most of the equipment behind them isn't very sensitive anyway, either because of the use of MOVs in the power supply or other design features. I have literally never had a piece of expensive electronic equipment fail because of a surge in the 35 or so years I have had any. But I had lots of cheap stuff fail before putting in the whole house TVSS, and nothing since. Of course, what works for me may not work for you. That is why there are different products competing for our dollars. You pays your money and takes your chances. BTW if any of you have cable, a satellite antenna, a regular TV antenna, or a phone line plugged into any of your audio/HT/computer equipment be aware that these all need to be surge protected, including antenna rotor cables, particularly if you are in an area that gets a lot of lightning strikes. I remember a thread on another forum from a guy who was unlucky enough to have a surge find its way into his house through his sprinkler wiring when a lightning bolt hit in his yard. None of the kind of surge protection this thread has considered can deal with a direct, nearby powerline strike. But appropriate protection can prevent a lightning induced surge from entering by a path other than your electrical service drop. Picture this scenario: lightning strikes nearby, your surge suppressor stops anything that comes in on the power line, but a surge is induced in your cable TV drop, enters your HDTV decoder, then your expensive plasma display, your A/V receiver and everything connected to it. ---------------- i have several tripplite units myself...... the protection circuit light only lights up when the circuit is "dead".... it tells you nothing about a weakened MOV..... you still do not know if oyu have good protection or not.... as for cable and other antenna lines..... proper installation requires them to be grounded at the point they enter your residence..... any surges on those lines should be diverted to ground before they enter your house.... you are right.... you pay your money and take your chances.... and after i had two separate instances of nearby lightning strikes that took out over half of my audio/video system each time..... both in different locations over a period of 8 years.... i decided to pay just one time.... one series mode protector on my audio/video system and one on my computer system..... (i use the tripplite models at the lake cabin on the tv and computer system).... an MOV system may work well for you..... or it may die tomorrow and take all of your equipment with it when it dies..... i am not worried - my series mode protectors will stop anything mother nature can throw at them.... cheers! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griffinator Posted August 16, 2004 Share Posted August 16, 2004 In defense of MOV's: Most MOV-based units will actually cut power to the equipment they feed when the MOV has been compromised. That said, I'm working on a distro relationship with Furman because I can't afford to have customers calling me complaining about a dead MOV unit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PAR69 Posted August 17, 2004 Share Posted August 17, 2004 I might be a little slow due to the hour, but what is an MOV? Any help would be appreciated. Paul Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malcolm Posted August 18, 2004 Share Posted August 18, 2004 MOV stands for "metal oxide varistor". Varistor is short for variable resistor. The resistance varies with the voltage applied to it. It is connected between hot and neutral, hot and ground, and/or neutral and ground. In surge suppressors, its parameters are chosen so that when normal line voltage (say 120V AC RMS, 170V peak) is present, it will always present a very high impedance and essentially look like it is not part of the circuit. When a surge of sufficient voltage comes along, its impedance will start to drop quickly. When its impedance drops it starts conducting current. When it drops enough, it becomes a very good imitation of a dead short, preventing damaging voltage from reaching the protected device. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minn_male42 Posted August 18, 2004 Share Posted August 18, 2004 malcolm is correct in his definition of MOV's..... just for furthur info..... MOV's cost about 25 cents each in quantity.... a typical MOV based surge protector will have 3 or 4 of these MOV's protecting your equipment...... cheers! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malcolm Posted August 18, 2004 Share Posted August 18, 2004 Some MOVs cost even less than $.25 in quantity. The MOVs in my Isobar units probably cost around a dollar, and the ones in my whole house TVSS even more. Price depends on voltage and current rating and packaging. But MOVs are inexpensive any way you look at it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PAR69 Posted August 20, 2004 Share Posted August 20, 2004 Thanks for the help and a great explanation, I understood it all. Paul Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dodger Posted August 20, 2004 Share Posted August 20, 2004 Hello: To note: requirement for code is that the ground rod must be 6 feet to proprly handle and dissipate a surge (NYS.) When we went to Dish, the cable grounding rod was puleed and was sunk a full 3 feet 2 innches - it had been cut. Also the Wire connecting to the rod was 2/3 the ga and connection of the Dish. So much for protection. The Dish rod was 6 feet. Telephone lines in my area are grounded to the water line but also have fuse protection. There is the misconception that with some, note that I say SOME, Surge Protectors are safe because they turn ALL of the equipment on at once. That can be a large current draw. Results - a tripped Circuit Breaker. In any unit one must: a) match Surge Protector and Outlet Amperage, unless you have a unit that stores power in capacitors for the sudden draw - not all turn Surge Strip Outlets on on individually or in pairs. One Should get a unit with an insurance guarantee if your equipment is damaged - repair or replace depending on cost and your choice, also c) Get a unit with good EMI (electro-magnetic interference) and RFI (Radio Frequency Interference) filtering. Not all of the Interference originates from outside the home. Example - my wifes sewing maching added lines to any Television (even with high cost Protectors - no names, no flames) and noise to FM Radio depending on if I was using the TV or FM Section. The Cure: Single Outlet Radio Shack Surge/EMI/RFI Protector to plug her machine into. My set ups use combinations of the Single Outlet Surge/EMI/RFI Protectors with Tripp-Lite Isobars (varies as to whether there are phone, Television, Dish, Antenna or WebTV Receiver plugged in) or with Audio a Single Outlet Protector, with a Tripp- Lite Iso-Bar or two, always plug into one of the last two Outlets for the most protection. Iso-Bar type again varies with what is plugged in, THEN two 2-gang connected together switched outlet (4 separate switched outlets total, then tested to make sure of polarity and that outlets ARE dead when switched off) so then I can turn on each desired piece of equipment myself - no reliance on a higher priced unit to do the same thing. If I need to have a longer run, no extension cord, just another Iso-bar. Nothing is fail-safe - you just try to stay in the same hotel. dodger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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