timbley Posted October 20, 2004 Share Posted October 20, 2004 Last night I tried something that's about to make me cry. I turned on the 100 hz filter on my Panasonic SA-XR50, telling it I had a subwoofer and that my RF-7s were small speakers. Thinking that covering from 35Hz to 2200 Hz was an aweful lot to ask of those 10" drivers, I wondered what it would sound like if I helped them out a bit. If you ask me, these speakers have been sweetened dramatically by releiving them of the lower bass. The midrange is so pure and beautiful, like I said, I'm almost about to cry. The best examples are AC/DC High Voltage and Bob Dylan Blond on Blond. These were pretty harsh sounding before. I tried turning up the bass on them and that helped darken them, but really made a muddy mess that I guess was less peircing than hearing that midrange so harsh. Not satisfying in any case. I expected that these recordings would be brighter and harsher than ever by getting rid of the lower bass. But just the opposite. I absolutely love the sound. There's a bagpipe part that would point out modulation in the midrange in a harshly audible way before. Take away the bass, and now that bagpipe thing is sweet and clear, stratospheric! I'm also about to cry because it looks like I'm going to have to plop some money down for a subwoofer. My receiver(s) will crossover as high as 200 Hz. Any suggestions on a sub that can sound fast and clear up this high? I was thinking maybe 2 SRW-10s, one next to each RF-7. For now, I don't care much about it digging super deep or having outrageous slam. But smooth, clean integration with the RF-7s is critical. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nicholtl Posted October 20, 2004 Share Posted October 20, 2004 ---------------- On 10/20/2004 1:01:37 AM timbley wrote: ...like I said, I'm almost about to cry...I absolutely love the sound. There's a bagpipe part that would point out modulation in the midrange in a harshly audible way before. Take away the bass, and now that bagpipe thing is sweet and clear, stratospheric! I'm also about to cry because it looks like I'm going to have to plop some money down for a subwoofer. ---------------- It's moments like these that remind us why we started this hobby in the first place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Klipsch RF7 Posted October 20, 2004 Share Posted October 20, 2004 Klipsch RSW-15 will go just fine with those RF-7's. I have the RSW-15 and it just plain ROCKS!!!! I power on my Mono block Dynaco's, flip 'em to triode and crank the volume and watch my LED meters get into the red, I then proceed to pay homage to the gods of rock!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxg Posted October 20, 2004 Share Posted October 20, 2004 Cant help wondering if the improvement you have witnessed isn't due as much to the decreased load on the amp as it is to the decreased range the speakers are being asked to play. Of course the addition of a powered sub-woofer would address either issue - but the option of bi-amping might prove as effective - might that is - Cant know unless one tries it. Just a thought... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrMcGoo Posted October 20, 2004 Share Posted October 20, 2004 I use the RSW-15 with my RF-7s, but I set the crossover at 80 Hz. The ideal zone for the crossover for RF-7s IMO is between 60 Hz and 100 Hz. If the crossover is set higher than 100 Hz, it will be easy to hear where the subwoofer is. Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Klipsch RF7 Posted October 20, 2004 Share Posted October 20, 2004 ---------------- On 10/20/2004 10:26:39 AM MrMcGoo wrote: I use the RSW-15 with my RF-7s, but I set the crossover at 80 Hz. The ideal zone for the crossover for RF-7s IMO is between 60 Hz and 100 Hz. If the crossover is set higher than 100 Hz, it will be easy to hear where the subwoofer is. Bill ---------------- I set mine to 40hz and run my RF-7's full range of my Tube preamp and run the subwoofer off the 2nd set of outputs on the preamp. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shock-Late Posted October 20, 2004 Share Posted October 20, 2004 I'd say your amp isn't really good enough for the RF7, and removing the bass from it just helps removing some amp distortion. The easier load your amp will see, the sweeter it will sound. Yes, bi-amping might help. And if you go for subs, please cross them over WAY lower than 200Hz! You'd ruin you speakers speed and attack. 100Hz it's the absolute max... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pierceb Posted October 20, 2004 Share Posted October 20, 2004 My RF-7's also sound better to my ears when I relieve them of material below 80hz (using the bass management in my Denon 3802). I do not, however, believe that it is a fault of the RF-7's, but it is entirely an amp issue(poor quality amp section). I wish I had the bucks to buy a good amp, and see what these 7's will do, but a pair of Walnut K-horns and Birch Raw Cornwalls got in the way. Now I find I spend more time with my Heritage models. Life if tough. -PB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timbley Posted October 20, 2004 Author Share Posted October 20, 2004 ---------------- On 10/20/2004 10:24:50 AM maxg wrote: Cant help wondering if the improvement you have witnessed isn't due as much to the decreased load on the amp as it is to the decreased range the speakers are being asked to play. Of course the addition of a powered sub-woofer would address either issue - but the option of bi-amping might prove as effective - might that is - Cant know unless one tries it. Just a thought... ---------------- I was wondering too how much of it is from unloading the amps. I'm already passively bi-amping, using two Panasonic SA-XR50s into the RF-7s. Doing that made a good improvement over running a single amp. Turning on the filter reduces the load further. for each amp. I actually have the filter set at 200hz for the tweeter's amp, but 100 or 200 doesn't make a noticeable difference there. That amp is barely putting out to begin with. Setting the woofer to 200 is just too little bass for me to listen and evaluate, although I suspect it'd be the best solution if I could fill in that 200 Hz on down in an effective manner. I realize it'd require 2 subwoofers because localization is a problem above 100 HZ. What I'm dreaming of is building some sealed woofer boxes using 10" drivers, designed to taper off around 50 Hz, and then eventually getting an RSW-15 and setting it at 40Hz. That's fill in the bottom nicely, and provide a dip right around 45 HZ, which is where my room resonates. While the amp load could be an issue, I think reducing the excursion on the 10" drivers may also be a big part of it. Without a sub, they're being asked to cover around 5 1/2 octaves. Frequencies up around the crossover point are getting modulated by the bass excursion of the drivers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timbley Posted October 20, 2004 Author Share Posted October 20, 2004 ---------------- On 10/20/2004 2:32:36 PM Shock-Late wrote: I'd say your amp isn't really good enough for the RF7, and removing the bass from it just helps removing some amp distortion. The easier load your amp will see, the sweeter it will sound. Yes, bi-amping might help. And if you go for subs, please cross them over WAY lower than 200Hz! You'd ruin you speakers speed and attack. 100Hz it's the absolute max... ---------------- It could be that the amp isn't up to snuff, even though I'm using two of them. But a lot of people think it's an incredibly good amp, even when driving very difficult loads. I was happy with the sound before I tried this little experiment, even before I bi-amped. But now it's even better. I realize if I want to cross over at 200 Hz, I may need to make something of my own, with speed and attack in the 100 to 200hz range being the design goal. I have another Panasonic SA-XR25 I could use to power a "midbass-woofer." It may not be necessary though. Getting rid of the lowest frequencies may be all that's required. That'd be a lot easier. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timbley Posted October 20, 2004 Author Share Posted October 20, 2004 ---------------- On 10/20/2004 10:24:50 AM maxg wrote: Cant help wondering if the improvement you have witnessed isn't due as much to the decreased load on the amp as it is to the decreased range the speakers are being asked to play. ---------------- Thank you everybody for your feedback. Everybody is telling me that the unloading the amp probably has more to do with it than the fact that the drivers have to cover such a broad range. And that makes sense to me if I think about it. They're pretty big drivers, and there's two of them on each speaker in a large ported enclosure, which means they really don't have to move much. I certainly can't see them moving at the levels I play at. I turned the filter off again tonight and listened to those bagpipes again. It turns out that the modulation I was hearing has more to do with where my head is than anything else. I guess those frequencies bounce around quite a bit in my room creating all sorts of unevenness. Maybe I should get a bunch of big potted plants to diffuse those highs more. The bass on the RF-7s is very nice. I'm almost afraid to get involved with a subwoofer, having been disturbed by them in the past. I just never could get a blend I was completely happy with. Of course, those were cheap subs, or homemade subs, and I was using bookshelf speakers. In any case, the RF-7s are sounding dandy full range, so I'll worry about all this stuff when I have more money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tunemanjjw Posted October 22, 2004 Share Posted October 22, 2004 On the note of amazing bass from rf-7, I recently stumbled upon perfection, sub-perfection: I run all of my music through a computer with a Dolby digital encoder built into it -(Nvidia soundstorm APU). It allows you to create different channels and control their levels and eq'ing and then output the result via a dolby digital stream to your receiver for decoding. I have my rears set to small and my RF-7's and RC-7 set to large on a B&K AVR-202. By a small amout of boost on the soundstorm eq, and creating a LFE with a small gain on it, upon decoding with SUBWOOFER set to NONE in the receiver, it reroutes all of the LFE to the fronts which truly opens up the potential of the RF-7's like no other. It's a lot like how the RSW subs are active EQ'd for extended low performance. I was seriously shopping a SVS dual subwoofer until I got this all set up. The best part is, it provides a VERY EVEN FULL-ROOM response and sounds very natural...I spent a lot of time working this out, and it never really worked until I got the B&K which does a great job blending it all apparently. Previously it'd always wound up making some notes sounding muddy or exaggerated and...basically just didn't sound right on all music as I preferred. My room is small (10.5' x 13.5' with 8.5' ceilings). All this to say, I get a flat and full bass response to below 30Hz. I will have to pull my test disc back out to verify frequencies (when people are awake again), but I can tell you while SPL metering music at listening position I registered an easy constant 120db with a peak of 125db at a frequency less than or equal to 30Hz (C-weighting on digital meter). A few of my klipsch reference 7-series junky buddies have heard it and been blown away. I assume most of you on the forum are not doing a home theater PC or PC to RF-7 set up of any kind, but if there're any other tech-junkies out there w/7-systems, I would almost be willing to pay for you to try this. As I said, I'll post up what the frequencies and pressure levels are specifically a little later when I get an empty house again. I have attached my settings. Note the EQ is set to flat from 500Hz to 16KHz (the flat point isn't the midpoint). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tunemanjjw Posted October 22, 2004 Share Posted October 22, 2004 Attached here is the channel creation/level setting jpg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Klipsch RF7 Posted October 22, 2004 Share Posted October 22, 2004 If you have the RF-7's, you definatly owe it to yourself to pick up a RSW-15 to fill out the bottom octaves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timbley Posted October 22, 2004 Author Share Posted October 22, 2004 ---------------- On 10/22/2004 12:03:08 AM tunemanjjw wrote: On the note of amazing bass from rf-7, I recently stumbled upon perfection, sub-perfection: I run all of my music through a computer with a Dolby digital encoder built into it -(Nvidia soundstorm APU).... ---------------- Thanks for posting this! I eventually plan to get into digital EQ, but I was waiting for something like the DEQX box to come down to a price I can afford. The Nvidia card sounds very intriguing, even if I do get a subwoofer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timbley Posted October 22, 2004 Author Share Posted October 22, 2004 ---------------- On 10/20/2004 1:01:37 AM timbley wrote: Last night I tried something that's about to make me cry. I turned on the 100 hz filter on my Panasonic SA-XR50, telling it I had a subwoofer and that my RF-7s were small speakers. Thinking that covering from 35Hz to 2200 Hz was an aweful lot to ask of those 10" drivers, I wondered what it would sound like if I helped them out a bit. If you ask me, these speakers have been sweetened dramatically by releiving them of the lower bass... ---------------- I think I've figured out what's going on here. I listened with the horn tweeter's amp crossed over at 200 hz, and then without it. Even though this is well below the tweeter's 2200Hz crossover point, the crossover circuit changes the tone balance of the tweeter when it is activated. I noticed the difference, and left it on because I thought it sounded better. Last night, after some reading on the web, I tried an experiment with diffusors. First I just hung a few things on the walls, but ran out of ideas. Then I realized that I had lots and lots of scrap paper piling up by the printer. So I got the scissors out and started making all sorts of curved and dangly things to hang all over the walls and in front of the windows. This radically changed the sound of my small room! My own voice sounded smoother and richer. My girlfriend's voice sounded better. Sitting down to listen, I noticed that the speakers were imaging much better, but sounded strange, sort of whispery, breathy, but not sibilant. Remembering the sonic change that I had noticed from the Panny's bass filter, I turned off the bass filters completely. Perfect! The problem I was hearing originally was a room ringing/echoing in the 2000 to 4000Hz range (I'm guessing.) The bass circuit somehow attenuated this range, which initially made me think the sound was sweeter. But now that the room has been substantially tamed, it sounds wrong. I think the speakers are voiced perfectly for a decent listening room and sound absolutely gorgeous. The Panisonic SA-XR50s put out excellent sound, but the bass circuit does more than it should for 2 channel listening, so it's best turned off. I'll write more about my room diffusion experiment and post some pictures ya'll might find humorous in another post when I get home tonight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sivadselim Posted October 22, 2004 Share Posted October 22, 2004 crossing those speakers and running twin rsw10's probably wouldn't be too shabby though, huh? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timbley Posted October 22, 2004 Author Share Posted October 22, 2004 ---------------- On 10/22/2004 3:18:19 PM sivadselim wrote: crossing those speakers and running twin rsw10's probably wouldn't be too shabby though, huh? ---------------- I'd love to try it. No money right now though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audio Flynn Posted October 22, 2004 Share Posted October 22, 2004 Cant help wondering if the improvement you have witnessed isn't due as much to the decreased load on the amp as it is to the decreased range the speakers are being asked to play. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Max G point is of significant validity. Your sub implmentation may give you more slam; but it has verified your amp is not that musical in full range. RF-7 does not need a sub to play music unless you listen to allot of pipe organ. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edwinr Posted October 23, 2004 Share Posted October 23, 2004 The RF-7's deserve, and demand, a very high quality amplifier to give their best. While many receiver's, including my favourite range at the moment, Yamaha, are good for home theatre, I don't think ANY receiver is up to the mark for serious music reproduction. After all the standard receiver does an awful lot of signal processing well before the loud speaker crossover even gets a look in. I question even the so called 'direct' mode which is a feature in most good quality receivers. I don't doubt some signal alteration still takes place before being sent down the speaker cables. If you think what tasks we ask of the humble receiver, it's amazing what relatively good sound we get. A good receiver will certainly run the RF-7's okay, but feed the RF-7's a quality signal from dedicated amplifiers, and just hear the sound change from merely good, to something truly outstanding. Don't take this as my disagreeing with the concept of subwoofers. An RSW-15 is an awesome creature to behold. So too would be a pair of RSW10's or 12's. But I think fine tuning the rest of the system first is a priority. Maybe a receiver/amplifier or source upgrade first, then once the sound is right, consider slipping in a subwoofer. That way each upgrade can be maximised for superior sound quality, rather than fixing a perceived deficiency or fault in the system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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