firefighter Posted October 30, 2004 Share Posted October 30, 2004 I have a pair of LaScalas and have really come to appreciate not only their performance but also their look. What I was thinking of doing is making a half size LaScala about the size of a Heresy and putting the Heresy parts in them. I have been thinking of this project every day for about 2 weeks and I have to know what you think. Would I loose any bass from putting the Heresy woofer behind the dog house. I have a sub so I can fill the bottom end, just curious. I also want to build a center with Heresy guts and two 8 in. woofers behind little dog houses on either side of the horns and eventually build a sub out of the bottom of a LaScala. I want an all LaScala entertainment room just don't have room for all full size ones, besides I think little LaScalas and a custom center with 2 dog houses would look WAY COOL. I've gone LaS loco. Jack. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tpg Posted October 30, 2004 Share Posted October 30, 2004 If you are serious about doing this, you probably need to do some MAJOR reading. There are websites about horn design, and you should probably check them all out. There are lots of formulas and such that you will need. If you halve the size of the LaScala, you will mess with the bass rolloff of the horn. The length and mouth area greatly dominate the response of a bass horn. You can usually get away with 1/4 wavelength in bass horns, I think, but that's still fairly long in some cases. Also, the Heresy's use a 12" woofer, which might be too big for a half-size LaScala, though I haven't done any measurements. You may need a 10". There is a LOT of stuff that goes into designing a horn... In my own research, I've only briefly touched the surface because I don't have the time to get deep into it. Also, I am NOT a skilled carpenter, so I cannot really build one anyway. On building a horn sub, note that you're gonna need a VERY long enclosure with a large mouth. Horn subs get really huge if you want them to dig down deep. See the BassMax and LABHorn. FWIW, I've been thinking of doing a multimedia speaker modeled after the LaScala using a 4" midbass and 3"x2" mid freq./high freq. driver. It looks cool in my mind, but is only an idea really, as I doubt I'll ever do it. The tiny horn that would be made for the 4" would probably barely be good down to 100Hz. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
firefighter Posted October 31, 2004 Author Share Posted October 31, 2004 tpg, After reading your post I measured the Las and the Heresy, I found that the little Las would be 2/3 the size of the normal one. I wasn't looking at the exact science of the project as I really wasn't aware of it. I was thinking more of just build it and see what happens, I would use 5/8 bc plywood for a first attempt.The woofer section is the only critical part as the mid and tweeter don't care how the cabinet is designed, is this correct? Here is a thought, If everything was 2/3 including the woofer 10" how far of the mark do you think it would be? There's a lot of thinking going on here. Jack. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mandi Posted October 31, 2004 Share Posted October 31, 2004 Come on folks, chime in. I think this sounds like a neat idea. A cute one as well. That would be so cool for rears, surrounds and center if you used LaScalas for mains and the LaMinis for everything else. Must not be somethink that can be done or Klipsch would have already done it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j-malotky Posted October 31, 2004 Share Posted October 31, 2004 Someplace on my server I have a plan for a LAS using a 12" woofer, but I can't find it. If I remember, it's bass bin was 16 x 16. and the rolloff was 125hz as compared to 53hz of the LAS. You would have to make sure your subs run up to 150HZ and make sure your processor has bass management that can compinsate for this. I think I got the plans from John Albright... but that was a few years ago. JM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tpg Posted October 31, 2004 Share Posted October 31, 2004 I figured the bass rolloff would be significantly higher, but not as high as 125Hz. I didn't do any measurements/calculations, though, I was just 'thinking'. heh The idea is definitely cool, though. I like the looks of the LaScala better than any of the Heritage, really. That is why I wanted a mini desk model for the fronts of my ProMedia setup. heh One thing I will say... despite the numbers, you might go ahead and try it out. You don't necessarily have to use a 10" woofer, you might be able to fit in a 12". Check out Eminence woofers from Parts Express for cost-effectiveness. I built a horn speaker out of a shoebox once- a front loaded "exponential" horn (I use the term exponential to describe its curved shape... but the actual thing was probably far from perfect as it was made of cardboard ). I used a 3" midbass and it really sounded good! Bass response was much better than it should have been. It certainly filled a room with sound. If I recall, someone built a mini K-Horn (with 12" woofer) and posted pictures in the Updates/Mods forum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
firefighter Posted October 31, 2004 Author Share Posted October 31, 2004 Ok, since bass roll off is the issue couldn't you use a 6" or 8" sub woofer. Forgive me for I don't know what I am talking about simply taking stabs at making it work. In my truck I have 2 JL audio 6" subs in sealed boxes that I made out of 3/4 mdf to JL specs and they hit low. Would using a small sub woofer(even if it doesnt hit as low as it should because of box design) compensate for the low you would loose using a standard woofer or would there be frequency gaps between the mid and the sub. Thinking out of the box, the look is what I am after so if there is a sealed enclosure inside the dog house that you can't see in order to get the low roll off needed, that would be ok. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tpg Posted November 1, 2004 Share Posted November 1, 2004 The bass rolling off at higher frequencies is mostly caused by the horn itself- ie what is in front of the speaker cone. The back half also has a lot to do with rolloff, but the horn's design and specs will rule mostly (from what I've gathered). That being said... I don't think going to a 6.5" or 8" will really be worth it. The larger pro audio woofers are going to have a higher sensitivity rating. I would go with a 10" at least... and something that will do well in a horn speaker (there are lists of desireable specs floating around the net for these too). I figure there is no point in making a horn speaker if it is going to have little more efficiency than a standard bookshelf... so make it count and get a good sensitive driver in there. Going with a smaller driver wouldn't really help much, I don't think. If you scaled the box down even more to fit the smaller driver, you'd be even worse off, with rolloff probably in the 300Hz region. Then you have little more than a midrange horn (like the 4x10", or whatever size it is, on the LaScala's and the like). But, it would be a mid horn that messes with the phase (pretty sure it inverts it...). It might be interesting to see how it would work with dual 8" or dual 10" or something instead of one single driver. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
firefighter Posted November 1, 2004 Author Share Posted November 1, 2004 tpg What I was suggesting is to use a 6" or 8" sub woofer instead of a woofer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvel Posted November 1, 2004 Share Posted November 1, 2004 You still need to use a woofer that will get enough high end out of the horn to be able to cross to the mid horn. I have posted this many times, but Erik Forker in Germany has built a small LS with a ten inch woofer: http://www.volvotreter.de/ Look under He made a wooden tractrix for the mid horn and added a Fostex tweeter. The LS he made goes from 100-500Hz. His downloads page has the plans for it (in metric). Is is about 2/3 size (16.45 inches wide.) Marvel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j-malotky Posted November 2, 2004 Share Posted November 2, 2004 ---------------- On 10/31/2004 5:06:34 PM firefighter wrote: Ok, since bass roll off is the issue couldn't you use a 6" or 8" sub woofer. Forgive me for I don't know what I am talking about simply taking stabs at making it work. In my truck I have 2 JL audio 6" subs in sealed boxes that I made out of 3/4 mdf to JL specs and they hit low. Would using a small sub woofer(even if it doesnt hit as low as it should because of box design) compensate for the low you would loose using a standard woofer or would there be frequency gaps between the mid and the sub. Thinking out of the box, the look is what I am after so if there is a sealed enclosure inside the dog house that you can't see in order to get the low roll off needed, that would be ok. ---------------- This is sounding way to complicated. First off, if you add a subwoofer to fill in the lows, you are trying to balance a 4 way design to match a classic 3 way. 2 systems to cover 40-400 HZ! YIKES. If this was me, I would rather use a sealed Heresy which is solid to 80 hz or a ported Cornwall. 2nd'ly - Using little driver subs will have a very different bass sound than a bass horn. In fact, I am thinking of replacing my SVS's with Bass horns in my Heritage HT. JM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvel Posted November 2, 2004 Share Posted November 2, 2004 firefighter, The doghouse IS a sealed box, with the woofer firing through a slot in the back. It reflects left and right, and back out the front of the cabinet (this is what makes it a folded horn). If you are going more for the look, you could probably then port that, but the design considerations get a bit peculiar. Cute ideas, but as has been stated, you then add a sub to fill in the bass. Marvel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
firefighter Posted November 3, 2004 Author Share Posted November 3, 2004 Marvel, I have viewed the small Lascala from Germany and can't do the metric thing. HBDRbuilder has some great plans for the standard LaScala all I have to do is convert it to a 2'3 scale. I know the doghouse is sealed, I should have said spec. sealed, thinking that dividers may have to be installed inside of the doghouse to achieve the correct cubic inch recomendations for a particular woofer or size woofer. I have a sub to fill in the bottom, I was trying to figure the best way to get the most out of the woofer situation in that small LaScala. j- malotky said he had plans at one time using a 12" heresy in a 16 x 16 bass bin with a 125 hz roll off. I was hoping to get lower, there may be other 12" or 10" woofers with a lower frequency range than the standard heresy and still have enough high to meet the mid horn. I don't know. J-malotky, I wasn't thinking 4 way, I was talking woofer substitution keeping it a three way. I was also considering a bass horn. I am the stage manager for a coliseum a often have the opportunity to listen to some very strong bass horns and love the sound. I would like to use the Lascala bottom, don't know how well it would work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frzninvt Posted November 3, 2004 Share Posted November 3, 2004 How about some Mini-Belle's? A forum member has already built a set and they look sharp. Don has some incredible woodworking skills. He offered to build Academies for people but strangely there was not enough interest. See his eBay link with photos! http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=14993&item=5721890894&rd=1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
firefighter Posted November 3, 2004 Author Share Posted November 3, 2004 Frzninvt, Thanks for sharing those pictures, that is an example of fine craftsmanship. I hope to scale mine even further to about 2/3 (size of a heresy) I can only hope that mine will turn out as good. I'm going to buy some practice bc plywood first and see how that goes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-MAN Posted November 3, 2004 Share Posted November 3, 2004 It can be done, but do not expect the response of a full-sized one, of course. The length of the full-size horn channel is roughly about 28 inched in length. Shortening the horn channel will raise the fc (low freq cutoff) to above 200 or 300Hz. So basicially, you would be creating, at best, a not-very-good midrange horn. The reason that none are available commercially is that it is basically a bad idea, because why build a folded midrange horn (mid-frequencies do not take to turning corners very well at all). Save your efforts for the real thing... DM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Serota Posted November 3, 2004 Share Posted November 3, 2004 Firefighter, have you considered using a full-sized LaScala and cutting off the top end to move it 'elsewhere'? As long as you keep the mid/high components in a near on-axis with the woofer you won't suffer from the plan other than destroying a cabinet. "Butt ugly" LaScalas are out there for the fixer upper for around $500 or so and you would have two to tear up. As far as your plan to go ahead and build the 8-10" versions, look at the center channel signal frequencies reproduced as a guide for what you want to at that spot. If your heart is set on this plan, the lack of bass capability is perhaps acceptable for a speaker in this location; but no other one. In the end, you being happy with what you got is all that really matters, right? The rest of us will continue to just blow the dough! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
firefighter Posted November 4, 2004 Author Share Posted November 4, 2004 Scott Serota, I will do one of two things, build a Heresy size LaScala and put heresy components in it or keep the heresys that I already have as rears and center. I feel the heresy is the best speaker to compliment the LaScala, once the tweeter is tamed down in the heresy the transition of sound from speaker to speaker is almost seamless. Thru trial and error I hope to have a LaScala series of speakers fronts, rears, center, and sub looking as though they all came from the same family. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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