Erik Mandaville Posted November 24, 2004 Share Posted November 24, 2004 Ok. Just a very small amount of background. I ordered the small case and 25K linear taper pot from Mouser. The rest of the stuff I had on hand, and built the little mini-box this morning before taking the dogs out. What you see is a Moondog, with a borrowed Heresy on top of my IKEA equipment rack. I did this to get the Heresy at approximately the same height at the K-horns. I have been listening really carefully in my Marie's car, which has a nice sytem in it, complete with a 'derived' center channel. It has always sounded SO FULL to me! The Klipschorn system now has a very similar sound, and the difference (I have to emphasize this) is pretty drastic. Yes, the Klipschorns sound amazing on their own, but adding this small speaker in the middle, with a way to control its output for the best blend, is something I have to keep. All I need to do if find a single Heresy speaker! I'm borrowing this one from the same gentleman who exchanged amps with me -- my DIY JFL Horus for his SE OTL. I have to say that if you haven't tried this, please do so just for fun. You may like it, you may not, but the sense of expanse and 3-dimensional depth is really surprising. It works extremely well. There are two miniboxes, I built the small of the two the combine the signal at the speaker rather than line level. I was worried about noise, but there is absolutely none. PWK and friends worked the values out perfectly. It's so easy to make, you all, you owe it to yourself to try this if possible! ...I don't know, maybe I can make a speaker with decent, high efficiency drivers, maybe a piezo tweeter, that will work decently enough for awhile. The picture may be huge -- sorry about that. I'm not familiar with Marie's little digital camera. I have to go back and listen -- it's just amazing! Erik Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfogg Posted November 24, 2004 Share Posted November 24, 2004 Erik, I've been listening to music in more then 2 channels for years now as I too think it is a large improvement over just two speaker listening. Vocal's just shine when you have a hard center channel compared against a phantom center. Now for you next step try a Hafler matrix to pull out some surround info..... Shawn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Mobley Posted November 24, 2004 Share Posted November 24, 2004 yeah, it was huge. here it is as an 800 x 600, lightened up a bit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Mobley Posted November 24, 2004 Share Posted November 24, 2004 Erik, What wood and finish are your KHorns? Are they Walnut Oil? That little box you built, is it passive? No amplifying hardware in it? If that's the case a guy could only reduce the volume of the center channel? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daddy Dee Posted November 24, 2004 Share Posted November 24, 2004 Erik, Thanks for the post and pic. Wanted to make sure I'm understanding the setup here. The L and R are driven from the SE OTL and the center from the other monoblock on the floor? The minibox on top is the single version which derives the center from the speaker level L and R? I wasn't sure about the mouser pot. The minibox also has a pot, right? Tell me more! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leok Posted November 24, 2004 Share Posted November 24, 2004 Erik, Thanks for the post and your effort. I will give this a try. Leo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edwinr Posted November 25, 2004 Share Posted November 25, 2004 Thanks, Eric. Interesting proposition. I'd like to try that when I eventually find the funds to buy some more speakers. School fees and school uniforms for the new year are killing me at the moment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted November 25, 2004 Share Posted November 25, 2004 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Mobley Posted November 25, 2004 Share Posted November 25, 2004 Dean, it looks like that diagram shows speaker-level outputs running into the box, then fed out to the RCA input jacks of an amp. High level outputs into low level inputs? Do the resistors in the box cut the level that much? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik Mandaville Posted November 25, 2004 Author Share Posted November 25, 2004 Tom: Thanks for the much-improved image, and to others for responding with interest. Dean: Thanks for going to the trouble of providing the schematic for this. Yes, both miniboxes are passive. The one I built is the more simple of the two. The other one combines the L/R signal on the preamp output, and then sends it to three dedicated amps -- with each of those using a 25K linear taper control to control output. The miniboxes are passive in themselves, but are part of an active stage, which of course controls the output of the center so that it blends best with the main speakers. I tried something like this a LONG time ago, after I bought an album (vinyl!) by Brian Eno. This was during his so-called 'Ambient Music' period, and the album was 'Music For Airports.' In the liner notes, he described a three channel arrangement very similar, if not exactly like, the one above; however, the third speaker (derived from an attenuated L/R feed)was positioned BEHIND and ABOVE the listening position. I had some JBL studio monitors at the time, and I grabbed some non-descript speaker to use as the third (This was in my dorm room in high school, by the way). So, I then tried this arrangement, and it sounded strange to me, mostly because I couldn't get the third speaker quiet enough. It threw the imaging all off, with seemingly most of the music coming from behind rather than the front. So much for that. The results I got yesterday were entirely different, and what Shawn indicated about vocals, bashes the nail very much on the head, pins the tail on the donkey, etc., etc. Vocals, in this case a single female singer from 'Pink Martini,' was so clearly delineated that she was all but right there in the room. Marie was working on a cross-stitch on the futon sofa, and I asked her if she would stop for just a minute to see what she thought of this new sound. I found the best level for the Heresy, and then turned the pot quickly on and then off, like a switch. She asked if I couldn't just install a switch, which is a good idea for this first box. Ok, now for the confession: I listened to the system this way with the K-horns, toed out slightly, on the shorter wall, which is about 15-16 feet wide. I have to say that even within this closer proximity, images were much improved, and the sound had a really nice sense of completeness. The speakers sound good on the long wall, too, but this puts the listening position right up against a wall, and something just does not sound right to me -- music sounds more FLAT front to back, even though the soundstage is enormous. I honestly don't think I want to go back to exclusively two-channel stereo. I think I will move the components off to the side, and start working toward finding the best height for the center speaker -- which may turn out to be flat on the floor with the riser installed. Ok. Lastly: I'm sure some who have read this may not no how to solder, which will make this experiment difficult to try. I'm not really interested in going into the minibox business, but I would be glad to help a few really interested guys/gals get something like this going. If you have been itching to do a little DIY project, this one would be just about ideal! If you have the manual dexterity to brush your teeth or spread peanut butter or preserves on a slice of bread, you will be able to solder. If you try, and it just doesn't work, send me your box, hardware installed, and I'll solder the necessary connections for you -- no charge. Lots of fun! Erik Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxg Posted November 25, 2004 Share Posted November 25, 2004 Erik, You keep posting these interesting variations on your system and I keep asking questions / making comments and observations that probably appear to be shooting down what you have done or are planning. They are not meant to appear like that - honestly. My question this time is this - in my usualy roundabout way: I can see that adding a centre channel speaker would enhance the central image - thereby increasing the presence of a lead singer. What I am concerned about - for my own setup at least - would be the potential loss of placement across the soundstage, the narrowing of the soundstage and/or the effect on the depth of the image. Right now - when I listen to large classical works the orchestra appears evenly spread across the soundstage from left to right speaker (and sometimes a bit beyond). Further, I get a sense of the depth of the orchestra. What I do not get is any sense of where the speakers are. In other words - there is no apparent emphasis on the strength of the sound emanating from the location of each speaker. This is probably the biggest change in my system since the time of upgrading began. At first I had a relatively strong central image, strong left and strong right (relating to speaker position) but gaps in-between. If I have understood your setup you are actually pumping the full range of signals from both left and right speakers into the single centre speaker. This would mean that far left signal information is coming into both the centre channel and the left speaker. I cannot see how that would not reduce the soundstage width, unless the volume of the centre channel is significantly lower than that of the 2 normal channels. And the questions... Have you noticed any of this? If not - how would you account for it? Max The complete PITA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik Mandaville Posted November 25, 2004 Author Share Posted November 25, 2004 Max said: "You keep posting these interesting variations on your system and I keep asking questions / making comments and observations that probably appear to be shooting down what you have done or are planning. They are not meant to appear like that - honestly. My question this time is this - in my usualy roundabout way: I can see that adding a centre channel speaker would enhance the central image - thereby increasing the presence of a lead singer." Max: That's fine. Ask away! People have the right to speak their minds, which is what you were doing, just as I was defending the right and importance of gaining first-hand knowledge. What you say about the possibility about this center channel possibly having a very positive influence on center image placement -- but at the potential cost of other things going on to the right and left -- seems critical to me! I think you have an excellent point, and it is something I have been wondering about, too. Honstly, things sounded so good to me from the start, that I have to say I probably forgot about what might going on if I analyzed the resulting OVERALL sound more carefully. (BTW: I use caps, because I don't know how to put things in italics, here!). I have a couple of friends that I'm sure I will hear from today, asking the very same thing as you. The sound had a striking richness and fullness, and my wife also commented that fine details became more present -- not in an obtrusive way, but more 3-dimensional and 'real' sounding. But......I can't help but admit that you have a very good point. I won't know the overall improvement or lack-there-of until I listen to the system this way for awhile. If my friend decides he wants his Heresy back again, it won't matter, anyway! Marie made a good point, too, very similar to what you said: She said she much preferred what the center channel did for the music, but told me to turn it down to a point where it drew no attention to itself at all. And that may be in fact be the key to using it correctly -- as I hope to be able to do with a subwoofer. We got the volume level to where the center channel seemed to simply vanish, which in itself was a pretty neat thing. It takes some fine tuning and careful adjustment, but sounded amazingly good when we got it right. Still, what you say about some of the negative aspects may be very true. There are some others on the forum who have been experimenting with more than two channels far longer than the couple of hours I did yesterday, so I am curious to hear some of their impressions of how it has worked out over time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxg Posted November 25, 2004 Share Posted November 25, 2004 Erik, I think you just convinced this numbskull with a single line: "She said she much preferred what the center channel did for the music, but told me to turn it down to a point where it drew no attention to itself at all. And that may be in fact be the key to using it correctly" That is it in a nutshell. I seem to remember that PWK originally wanted to use the Heresy as a centre channel between 2 KHorns anyway. Even if you were running all 3 speakers directly off your 2 monoblocks the difference in sensitivity would effectively mean the Heresy's would be less than half the volume of the KHorns (96 dB Vs 104 I think - that is an 8 dB difference and I think 6 appears to be a halving of volume). At that level the Heresy should merely act to re-inforce the placement of the centre image with neglibile effect on anything else. Therefore it will merely affect the apparent positioning of a central singing voice (especially when outside of the sweetspot), and not the sound of it. Clever stuff - in other words you are using the centre channel entirely differently from the implementation of, say, a centre channel in an HT setup - which is what was clogging my mind. If I ever get up the energy I will build a 3rd matching speaker to my own and have a play myself. Trouble is it needs 4 man days to do it - who has the time? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Q-Man Posted November 25, 2004 Share Posted November 25, 2004 Now your begining to get it. Soon you will be posting in the home theater section about what a difference 7 speakers make and how you are enjoying multi channel mucic. The time will come and you will wonder how you ever listened to just two channel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxg Posted November 25, 2004 Share Posted November 25, 2004 Just 7 Q-man?? I now cant recall what the videophile that accompanied me on the 2nd day said he had in his home theatre but I think it was 8.2(?) 3 across the front 3 across the back 2 half way between on either side (and high up) and 2 subs I think! As it took me 3 months to position 2 speakers correctly I cant imagine where you would start with 10!! On the other hand you have done it with all Heritage if memory serves. That would not pass the WAF in my house, not by a long long shot and then some. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik Mandaville Posted November 25, 2004 Author Share Posted November 25, 2004 "At that level the Heresy should merely act to re-inforce the placement of the centre image with neglibile effect on anything else. Therefore it will merely affect the apparent positioning of a central singing voice (especially when outside of the sweetspot), and not the sound of it." I hope you don't mind my copying and pasting these quotes, Max. It just keeps me on track. So, to responds to what you say above: I THINK so. At least that is what we have heard so far. I'm hoping that the right and left channels will remain completely whole, but again, I think the volume of the center channel will play an important part with that. With the Heresy too loud, the image became confused and out-of-proportion -- very similar, I guess, to what might be similar to looking through a camera (non-digital SLR) with a fish-eye lens. We don't have a multi-channel HT, but isn't the center channel distinct from the others -- it's where the dialogue comes from, right? That might be different to combining the left and right channels in a stereo. Most of what we watch doesn't have much in the way of sound-effect information, so our TV/movie watching is pretty simple in that respect. If I remember this right, what Eno said about his three channel setup is that the third speaker provided what neither the right nor left channel had by themselves, but was the combination of what was missing from both. (ok, I just tied my brain in a knot, but I think that was the point.) His center channel was derived the same way Klipsch did it -- maybe I should go yank that album and make sure I have the facts right. Maybe the center channel simply increases and improves the stereophonic illusion of 3-dimensional space, without degrading (unless turned up too loud) what's already there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Q-Man Posted November 25, 2004 Share Posted November 25, 2004 ---------------- On 11/25/2004 8:25:19 AM maxg wrote: Just 7 Q-man?? Actuality I'm doing a 10.1 setup. I said 7 because most home theaters are using a 7.1 these days. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colterphoto1 Posted November 25, 2004 Share Posted November 25, 2004 Erik, thanks for your experiment and mention of Brian Eno's Music for Airports. It's on CD now with much less noise (LP surface) than the original you had. Still a great recording and you have to love Brian's liner notes on how to play the music that of course had never been airwaves. There were so few electronic artists giving us info on their monitoring systems at the time, but it was artistically the right thing to do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colterphoto1 Posted November 25, 2004 Share Posted November 25, 2004 I'm waiting for 9.1 when we have to hang a speaker directly overhead and have one implanted in the floor below the listening position. When does it stop??? Perhaps electrodes directly to the brain, but then how does the engineer mix the sound for different brain types and sizes?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxg Posted November 25, 2004 Share Posted November 25, 2004 ---------------- On 11/25/2004 9:25:42 AM Q-Man wrote: ---------------- On 11/25/2004 8:25:19 AM maxg wrote: Just 7 Q-man?? Actuality I'm doing a 10.1 setup. I said 7 because most home theaters are using a 7.1 these days. ---------------- Of course you are - I expected nothing less. I am not even going to ask where they will all go!! Erik, I need to lie down for a while before I return to what you are doing. I am torn between "it will ruin everything" and "it is the most brilliant thing for stereo since the invention of the vinyl record". Let me know will ya... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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