What is your experience with ALK's crossovers?

[Dylanl]

I just purchased a set and they are on there way. I know many like these crossovers but what specifically do you like regarding the effect that they have on the sound? I would like to hear from those of you who have heard them so I can see if they have the same effect in my system once installed.

[Deang]

You actually bought those POS networks? It would have been cheaper and easier to throw a blanket over your Klipschorns.

Dylan, it's like you just bought a Cadillac, and you're asking other Cadillac owners if they like the way they ride!!

[3dzapper]

.

[Dylanl]

Dean, I guess the reason I ask is that I have the AA crossover now and I was just hoping to get a response from others as to what to expect.

[Guy Landau]

I liked them at first and thought that they sounded clean. After I've switched to type A's I found them lean and lacking detail in the mids.

This is JMHO. Most people like them and I hope that you'll like them too.

[Colin]

heard the extreme slope ALK models and liked them, still considering them, but they are expensive...

DeanG are there better alternatives? Like what? Why?

[Deang]

"Better" alternatives? Wow Colin, that's not an easy question to answer. I think your cost no object performers would have to be AL's ESNs ($1100), and Klipsch's AK-4 Upgrade Kit ($1800). So, the straight answer is "yes", there are better performers if you're willing to pay for them. Both of these networks address and solve the problem of the K400/401 producing distortion from excessive energy being dumped into the narrow throat. Al of course addresses some other issues with his ESN, and the AK-4 has a few nifty tricks wrapped up in it too.

With networks, you definitely get what you pay for. Mixed reviews regarding the ALK comes from SET users. I have a theory on this, but I think I've ruffled enough feathers this week. At any rate, with what I actually understand about filters and the Klipschorn -- if I have $500 or so to spend, and I need a set of upscale networks -- I'm buying ALKs.

[Parrot]

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On 12/23/2004 7:22:40 PM DeanG wrote:

Mixed reviews regarding the ALK comes from SET users. I have a theory on this, but I think I've ruffled enough feathers this week.

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Come on, let's hear it now. You'll be forgiven for whatever you say because of the holidays.

[sfogg]

" I guess the reason I ask is that I have the AA crossover now and I was just hoping to get a response from others as to what to expect. "

I put the ALKs in a pair of LaScalas that had AAs in them. They make the speaker better balanced top to bottom as the tweeter filter has less losses in it and because you can scale back the squawker level to be more in line with the rest of the speaker.

It also gets rid of the occasional tear your head of harshness that sometimes happens on certain music from the squawker ringing.

I felt they were a very nice improvement to the stock LaScala and also worked well when I started trying out other horns and squawker drivers.

For amps with high output impedance the networks present a more stable load to the amp then the AAs. That will reduce the FR interaction between the amp and speaker.

Shawn

[Dylanl]

I bought the DIY ALK crossover. So I did not spend the 500.00. If I decide to sell the original AAs what are they worth?

[Daddy Dee]

One thought... If your AA's are in the neighborhood of 30 years old, it wouldn't be unusual if some of the caps have drifted off spec. Without confirming that they are up to spec, you don't know if you've got an apples to apples comparison with the ALK's.

I've had Bob Crites do some rebuilds on crossovers for me and he is kind enough to do the testing first. If it ain't broke, it doesn't need to be fixed.

The ALK's are excellent crossovers, but after having my old networks recapped I realized that my initial "blown away" impressions of the ALK were in comparison to old AA's that were off spec. In addition to the rebuild, Bob also fixed up the crossovers so that changing AA to A was switchable as well as the squawker taps on the autoformer.

Now I still love the ALK's and the type A's.... swapping them out from time to time. It would be too much like work for me to describe the differences, just don't think in audiophile terms. But it is interesting to change the reference sound from time to time.

[Chris Robinson]

For me the difference was very noticable. The edginess of the midrange was removed and the bass was really cleaned up.

Recently, I sent the ALK's up the JFL to try with his Klipschorns and he reported similar results.

Well worth the $500 IMHO.

[Al Klappenberger]

Guys,

I think a lot of the differences in the impressions different people get with my networks is dependant on the type tweeter the speaker has and how the squawker level is set. My network has far less loss to the tweeter. With the newer square magnet K77 it may give you too much highs. It would be lower with the less efficient round-magnet K77. I believe it's better to have too much highs that not enough. That way a simple L-Pad in the tweeter cable will take care of it. I think most people aren't aware of this.

The AA network wastes high frequency power by sending it to the squawker no matter how good the caps in the tweeter filter happen to be. The AA has nothing at all to limit highs to the squawker. It actually gets everything above 400 Hz or so! The tweeter gets everything above roughly 6000 Hz. So, the squawker and tweeter are actually in parallel above 6000 Hz! This is also one of several reasons why the impedance presented to the amp is so squirley!

As to the Klipsch type "A". The overlap between squawker and tweeter is terrible. It's asking for distortion from lowes getting to the tweeter and all sorts of interaction in the form a frequency response peaks and dips all over the room becasue of the two sound sources lining up in and out of phase at different places! One listen to my extreme-slope networks will convince you of that. The improved smoothness in the dispersion is dramatic.

Al K.

[Dylanl]

Can you explain one more thing to me about the results. When some of you said the bass was cleaner you did not mean I will loose bass did you? If you could please be a little more descriptive of the bass and results I would appreciate it.

[Q-Man]

The neat thing about the ALK is that you can attenuate the midrange driver. Other then that it's no different then any of the networks that are built using high dollar parts. Hovland caps, film and foil inductors, and Solen chokes are some of my favorites.

At first I thought it was AL's design that made it sound so good.

Later I learned it's just the parts that make the difference. Al's network was a real improvement at first, and shocked us all, because he was the first to let us hear what a new network would sound like. There were others out there, like John Warren, who were already using high dollar parts in their networks.

I thing everone eventually learned that all they had to do was write down the parts used in their stock networks and replace those parts with new and better ones. Look at what Dean and BEC(sp) are doing.

Klipsch also learned a lot from the Fourm. They too eventually jumped on the band wagon and put more money into their networks for the new Herritage line. Maybe all our complaning and discusions on how to improve the sound of the Heritage speakers showed them what we learned and what we expected from these speakers. If your going to have a flagship speaker you should make it as good as you can, regardless of cost. Who knows maybe someday Klipsch will put better sounding horns and drivers in the top end. Why not offer it two ways, the current way with it's V-8 engine and a hot rod version with a V-12. Good thing I'm not the top dog at Klipsch, I would have to have one kick a$$ speaker that I wasn't ashamed to show off. Then again, I might go broke.

[sfogg]

" Other then that it's no different then any of the networks that are built using high dollar parts."

Of course there are differences, they are different designs. Does a high dollar built A sound the same as a high dollar built AA? Throw high dollars into an AL network... is it going to sound the same as the others?

"Later I learned it's just the parts that make the difference. "

Just the parts? Design plays a big part in a crossover. After all I could throw whatever you consider the best parts into a crossover that low passes the bass bin at 100hz, high passes the squawker at 2000hz and runs the tweeter full range. A 30 year old AA will sound much better then that.

My ES600s are built with about the same quality of parts as where my ALK Type As... if "it's just the parts that make the difference" these two should sound the same. But they don't, they are quite different sounding.

Shawn

[Al Klappenberger]

Guys,

There is another EXTREMELY important thing going on here. A listeners FIRST impress is that of the difference between what he hears now and what hs is used to hearing. That goes away over time. You forget what you are used to very quickly. This is what causes people to think a new item is "burning in". It is in fact you getting used to the new sound. Your first impression is the true one but even that needs to be put into context becasue it involves the synergy of every recording you have with respect to the new "item".

My universal type A replacement network is very conventional. The big advantage in it's design is that it presents a constant impedance to your amp. This is very important to a little one-lunger (SET) as I call them, but is less important to a high quality SS amp that has a very low source impedance. As Qman says though, the ability to set the squawker level is it's most obvious feature otherwise.

What Shawn hears with my ES600 network is the real advantage of an improved design. The extreme-slope feature is a significant advantage over any conventional network having 6,12,18 or even higher slopes. These are 120 dB / octave or the equivalant of a 20th order Butterworth filter. Only one driver is making each sound so there is no interaction except at a very small "window" right at the crossover frequency.

Al K.

[Q-Man]

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On 12/24/2004 1:29:58 PM sfogg wrote:

" Other then that it's no different then any of the networks that are built using high dollar parts."

Of course there are differences, they are different designs. Does a high dollar built A sound the same as a high dollar built AA? Throw high dollars into an AL network... is it going to sound the same as the others?

Of course the different networks sound a little different then each other. We all discussed the differences in the networks about three years ago. The AL-2 and the AK-2 being the least liked network for most of us. And yes, the AL network design alone will sound atot better then the stock one if you use the design with higher quality parts. I was being very general in the quote you picked above. Parts alone will make a big difference. I don't recommend doing this to the AL networks, I would copy another design. I was just trying to make a point. Who mentioned changing crossover points and slopes?

The ALK is an AA with a swapping resistor and has constant impedance. The network that started this all for most of us. I'm not putting it down. I had two pairs before I decided the Klipschorn still didn't sound good enought for me, and went with different drivers, horns, and networks. You go build yourself a stock AA without diodes and use the same quality parts that the ALK uses and tell me if you can hear a difference between the two of them.

Why do people like Dean,s, and BEC's networks? There isn't any design changes.

[sfogg]

"The ALK is an AA with a swapping resistor and has constant impedance."

There is more then that different between them. The ALK is also a bandpass for the squawker, the AA isn't. The ALK keeps the squawker from ringing, the AA doesn't. That is audible and very measurable.

http://forums.klipsch.com/idealbb/view.asp?topicID=40781&forumID=71&catID=19&search=1&searchstring=&sessionID={37DE8D9B-CDB4-4579-A954-B3AC7F36E5A9}

The tweeters high pass is a better design in the ALK... it has less losses due to design then the AA.

"Why do people like Dean,s, and BEC's networks? There isn't any design changes."

Because they are built with fresher parts.

I didn't say parts quality doesn't mean anything, what I disagreed with was your assertion that parts quality is *everything*. I'll take a good design with decent parts over a lousy design with fantastic parts any day of the week. YMMV.

Obviously you agree with that since you too had custom networks *designed* for you.

Shawn

[Dylanl]

So, from what I see maybe a rebuild of my AA's with quality parts would be a good move. What would it cost to rebuild the AA's? I would then be able to compare up to par AAs against ALKs. What do you think. Has anyone rebuilt a set of AAs that is sitting around that I could test? This would save me alot of time and money.