BillH2121 Posted January 13, 2005 Share Posted January 13, 2005 Although there was an overwhelming lack of interest when I asked this question a few days ago, I'm going to try again . I'm thinking of going to a tube amp sometime later this year. What tube amp, integrated or not, would be a good change from my Mac 2125/C-26 combo and fall in the $2000 range. I want to be able to drive my RF-7s similar to now so I want something that can replicate the 120 watt Mac. BTW, is it true as I read on the Jolida page that a watt of tube amp is similar to 2-3 watts from SS amp (60 watt Jolida = Mc2125??)? If not integrated, what tube amp would work well with my C-26? Thanks for any help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3dzapper Posted January 13, 2005 Share Posted January 13, 2005 Bill, The $2k range puts you in reach of quite a few great amplifiers. None of which will sound like your SS Mac 2125. They will sound better!!! You will get better recommendations if you tell all your listening preferences and the volume you like to listen at. Do you like lots of bass slam or prefer the fluid midrange and shimmering highs? In other words put in as much detail as possible. Rick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillH2121 Posted January 13, 2005 Author Share Posted January 13, 2005 Thanks for the suggestion Rick - I listen to jazz, classic rock, and orchestral music. When I listen to rock, I crank it up and expect solid (but accurate) bass, pinging cymbals, sharp snare drum, and punchy guitar. I don't usually listen to jazz or classical music at such high volumes but expect warmth throughout the sonic range and detail with vocals and instruments. Although I like the purity of the highs with the RF-7s, I am beginning to understand how some might object to these speakers as being a bit bright. So, something that might tame that high end of the 7's would be nice (and yes, I do plan to have Dean do his magic with the crossovers). Primarily, I don't want to sacrifice the ability to crank up the rock music for the sake of some warmth in other areas - that's why I'm adamant that I want to be able to drive the RF-7s as I do now with the Mac. In other words, I want it all - and cheap too!! - I'm just joking, I know there are limitations with my budget. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3dzapper Posted January 13, 2005 Share Posted January 13, 2005 Bill, What you are describing, to me, sounds like you will want a KT-88 based amp with a good amount of power supply capacity and, for the warmth and detail, a triode/pentode mode switch. I'll leave it to RF-7 owners to reccommend specific amps that they are familiar with that are within your budget.. DeanG mods to the RF-7 crossover are, from what others have said, worth the price of admission. Rick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted January 13, 2005 Share Posted January 13, 2005 This is what you want Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Posted January 13, 2005 Share Posted January 13, 2005 I would consider a number of low cost antique integrated tube amplifiers for a coupla hundred, all of which need hundred-dollar refurbishing jobs by people like frequent poster NOSvalves. Look for models like Scott, Eico, Fisher and Dynaco. Once I heard an ugly gold-faced $40 Fisher tube receiver sound much better on big ole Klipsch Khorns than a monster Citation SS amp (at Atma-sphere Music in MN) some 30 years ago, I had to have it. I have been sold on HORNS & tubes ever since. For new integrated tube amplifiers, ASL, Cayin and Jolida come to mind. They can run to $1K, but are well worth it compared to feature-laden, but chintzy sounding, solid-state receivers in the same price range. Check out the Antique Sound Lab MG-SI15DT Single Ended Integrated Tube Amplifier at: http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_8_1/antique-sound-lab-15dt-tube-amp-1-2001.html. The editor said, "but, view it this way. The 15DT is an entry-level tube product, at an entry-level price, but is Class A and single-ended, which are two characteristics that tubophiles love. It's a bargain." Your system will sound so sweet and engaging that you will enjoy it for years. Like someone said on another post, when you listen to horns with tubes, you hear music, not just sound. I heard the copper-faced Cayin TA30 on upgraded RF7s and classic Klipsch corner Khorns at preacherman Daddydees May 2004 Klipsch gathering in Little Rock, Arkansas. I thought they did a very good job compared to the lower powered, more delicate sounding Bottlehead 2A3 Paramours, Wright 2A3 and custom Lasard 2A3 amplifiers, but not as powerful as deans massive silver Quad amplifiers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillH2121 Posted January 13, 2005 Author Share Posted January 13, 2005 Colin - I checked-out the ASL 15DT and am encouraged by the price of the outfit, BUT - will it put out the dbs that I enjoy for rock music? I can see something like that satisfying my needs with the jazz and classical stuff but not sure about the watts provided when I crank the Yes and Little Feat. I know so little about tube amps, I guess I need to find somewhere locally that I can listen to some. BTW NOSValves, I checked out your site - are you able to discuss price on this forum? What's the cost for the items pictured? - do I use a preamp with it? If so, will it work well with my C-26? Thank you all for trying to educate me here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Posted January 13, 2005 Share Posted January 13, 2005 yes, in my experience, the Cayin TA30 on RF7s and the ASL 1003 DT on Khorns all have enough power to get really loud, a big sub also helps buy something with a 30 day guarantee, but with classic names like those at NOSvalves, you can't really go wrong, should be able to sell them for what you paid for them... no, it is not true, the actual current is about 5 timnes more: One of the confusing arguments in the classic tube versus solid-state debate is the amount of voltage versus wattage the two types of amplifier produce. As Peter van Willenswaard graphically demonstrates in his Stereophile magazine articles of 2000 and 2001 (http://www.stereophile.com/features/357/index5.html), Tubes Do Something Special." His figures show a vintage Nikko 25W solid-state amplifier generating 7.6V peak to peak (p-p) at the mike amp output. A 10W 300B tube amplifier easily beats it with 11.3V p-p (fig.5). Even a flea-powered 4W amplifier with EL84 tubes excites the microphone to just beyond the level produced with the 25W solid-state amp, at 8.1V p-p (fig.6). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillH2121 Posted January 13, 2005 Author Share Posted January 13, 2005 Well, after my brief tutorial on the glory of tube amps this afternoon and some looking on the internet at various amps, I contacted the two "high-end" audio atores in the Oklahoma City area. To my dismay, neither place carries any type of tube amp. Apparently, its going to be a challenge to find tube amps to demo in this area. I need some assurance before I depart with my dear Mac equipment that I've kept for 30 years that the sound will be that much superior. Its not that I doubt you all, I would just like to hear the difference myself. Or perhaps I'll just take your word and dive in. Its still counterintuitive to me that a 15 watt amp is going be louder than my Mac. I understand it may have a warmer, more accurate, superior, etc, etc, sound, but louder? I'm anxious to have more input re which tube amp would sound best with my RF 7s and is within my price range ($2000). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
valvecue Posted January 13, 2005 Share Posted January 13, 2005 With a sensitivity of 102db/1w/1m you could get a way with flea-powered amps especially if your room is modestly sized. I sometimes use a 2.5watt amp on my 25square foot room and they sound fine. Most of the time I do use an 8watt 300B, I suspect I barely use 3 watts of output. Starting off with the Cayin/Jolida is a good entry point to tubes. I did the same many moons ago, then started buying vintage amps- fishers, scotts, stromberg carlsons as I got convinced that they sounded much better. But getting into vintage amps could be tricky- after all mine were more than 40 y.o. and a cap/resistor would occasionally have to be replaced. With what you described, you could get away with an 18w fisher x100 using el84 tubes. This could be had for really cheap. Or if you are not convinced go for el34 based amps that do churn out 35w or so. I doubt very much whether you will get to set your volume at 12 o'clock. Buy second hand- try even ebay or audiogon. In case it does not please, you could sell it and recover pretty much your own cost, and possibly make money from it. Discovering new things about this hobby is part of the fun. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-MAN Posted January 13, 2005 Share Posted January 13, 2005 Actually, I agree with Craig's BLATANT PANDERING. THOSE are exactly what you are looking for. DM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillH2121 Posted January 13, 2005 Author Share Posted January 13, 2005 Well, Craig - how much are those beauties??? Take a trade on some used Mac equipment? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillH2121 Posted January 13, 2005 Author Share Posted January 13, 2005 Well, Craig - how much are those beauties??? Take a trade on some used Mac equipment? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cleandan Posted January 14, 2005 Share Posted January 14, 2005 BillH2121, I am not a tech head about this stuff, so I will not try to dazzle you with the details. There are others here that can do this much better than I could ever attempt. In an earlier post you were wondering if the tube amp will be as "loud" as the MC2125. This is a tough thing to cover, and prove, as you have a very capable amp in that MC2125. If you had a cheapo 100-200WPC amp that you were comparing, the proof would be in the pudding. The Mac, however, has superior power, and plenty to spare when using very efficient speakers. I have a MC2125 and use a C32 pre, running through either Heresys or KLF-20's, so I understand what you have become accustom to. My friend has been playing with tube amp selections for about two years. I have listened to many of them with him. A couple store bought stockers, a couple modified units, a couple vintage units. They all had their own unique sound, and even the worst one sounded very nice. Most of these were in the 30wpc area with the highest being a 60wpc and the lowest being 15wpc. We tried them on Fortes, KLF-20's, Heresys, KG-2.2, 1.5's, and 1.0's, There were other speakers, but those are the Klipsch we tried. NONE, and I mean NONE of these amps were NOT able to produce a sufficient SPL to make the music loud. Did they all drive the system like the MC2125?...NO, but remember, the MC2125 is a pretty big stick to swing, so using that as your barometer sets the expectations pretty high from the start. Rest assured though that a quality 25wpc amp will drive the system quite hard if needed. As mentioned earlier, it is in the output voltages...and tubes excell in the output voltage department, not to mention sweet sound. Good luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dubai2000 Posted January 14, 2005 Share Posted January 14, 2005 Bill, have you ever thought of getting some vintage Mac tube amp (30's/240 etc.)? As you seem to like the 'Mac sound', I'd probably follow that route (and later you might even switch to a different - read: tube Mac preamp ). Just my $0.02 Wolfram Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillH2121 Posted January 14, 2005 Author Share Posted January 14, 2005 Wolfram - yes, I originally thought that if I went the tube route that I would definately go with Mac equipment. However, the helpful posts that I have gotten in this thread have pointed me to some tube amps that are, price-wise, much more reasonable than I thought possible (ASL, Cayin, Jolida). However, I am going to keep my eyes open for used Mac - but what I have seen in the past seemed much more expensive than the $1000 - $1600 range of amps that I looked at online the last couple of days. The problem, as I mentioned above, is that I never thought I would get rid of my 2125 and now I'm thinking of doing just that when I don't even have the opportunity to listen to these tube amps that everyone assures me is so great. I don't doubt them, I just know that listening is a very subjective experience and once the 2125 is gone, its gone. cleandan - thanks for your reponse, its good to hear from someone who has a 2125 and can give some objective/comparative info. I notice you've had the opportunity to listen to some good tube amps by virtue of your friend's experience and, yet, you've stayed with the 2125. Did you, as has been described, find the tube amps to create a superior sound over the SS? Is a change to tubes something you would recommend with the Kklipsch speakers? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillH2121 Posted January 14, 2005 Author Share Posted January 14, 2005 mdeneen - No, I definately don't usually listen with needles pegged (only when I'm trying to amaze my friends and scare my grandchildren. Its just that I'm still operating on my knowledge base from 30 years ago and its hard to think of a 10 or 15 watt amp doing the job. But, you and the other knowledgeable members of this Board have convinced me that I need to explore the world of tubes, so I guess that's the direction I'm headed. Now the only question is - which amp? I got kind of excited yesterday as perused the web pages and found all these integrated tube amps in the $1000 - $1700 range. Excited, because instead of waiting until later this year, I thought that I might be able to sell my Mac stuff for enough to go ahead and get something soon. However, if I spend $1500 or so on an amp and still have to get a preamp, then it looks like I might still have to wait a while. Thanks to all of you who have given advice and shared experiece. I'm still open to any suggestions you might have as to specific choices in amps. And, does anyone think it is possible to use my C-26 for awhile if a preamp is needed. Thanks again Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted January 14, 2005 Share Posted January 14, 2005 ---------------- On 1/13/2005 8:12:33 PM BillH2121 wrote: Well, Craig - how much are those beauties??? Take a trade on some used Mac equipment? ---------------- Sorry I was MIA all evening. The normal retail is $2599 but there is a special deal for all previous customers and active Klipsch, Audio Karma and SH forums member of $2299 plus shipping. You would need to choose the finish of either Maple or Walnut. I've heard my amps on RF7's and I am very confident in saying they will put a smile on your face for sure. I suggest you pay close attention to Mark's advise the preamp is a vital component to your end result. As far as trades I'm all traded out ! Especially if were talking SS gear. You should have no trouble selling a McIntosh though. Craig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cjgeraci Posted January 14, 2005 Share Posted January 14, 2005 The prior post that mentioned "KT-88 based" amps has validity. If I were you, a pair of Craig's VRDs would be my first choice. Secondary choices would be to find a nice vintage set of 50-60 watt per channel push-pull monoblocs (i.e. Dynaco Mark IIIs) and if they have not already been rebuilt nicely, have Craig or someone do a nice rebuild. A number of people indicated that you might be happy with a SET amp or even a 25 watt per channel PP amp. That may be sufficient for RF-7s if you NEVER, EVER want to crank them up - even for a second. But, you mentioned periodically wanting to listen to "Yes" and "Little Feat" (two of my favorite groups, BTW.) Then you need more in the tube world. The problem is that RF-7s seem to be more demanding than other Klipsch speakers when it comes to lower powered tube and SS amps - at least to sound good at higher volumes. I know you don't usually listen to music with the needles pegged, but it is nice to have the capability if you want it - that is for your speakers to be able to get up and go - without any distortion, etc. And RF-7s are infamous for doing just that. For example, my Marantz 8B, a nice 35 watt per channel pp amp, has run Belles and Cornwalls at higher volumes - very, very nicely. But, it has a little difficulty running the RF-7s at higher volumes - they are a demanding speaker. That is why I will running my RF-7s by either my Mark IIIs or my 200 watt Rotel SS. If you never plan on listening to music at higher volumes - then ignore my post. My two cents. Carl. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy Landau Posted January 14, 2005 Share Posted January 14, 2005 If you ever decide to go through the vintage route - I have this nice pair of Marantz 5's for sale. I know that Gary has a nice Mcintosh MC240 for sale, so you can try and contact him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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