Al Klappenberger Posted January 14, 2005 Share Posted January 14, 2005 Guys, Here's something EVERYBODY sould read: http://signal.ece.utexas.edu/seminars/dsp_seminars/01fall/AudioMyths.pdf Al K. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rudy81 Posted January 14, 2005 Share Posted January 14, 2005 Oh boy AL, you are going to start a member war! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodog Posted January 14, 2005 Share Posted January 14, 2005 OK! No more tweaks (at least until next year)... other than that... watch out.. here it comes! Woo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3dzapper Posted January 14, 2005 Share Posted January 14, 2005 L L L Lets Get Ready To Bumble!!!!! Looks to me that Dr Kite produced that presentation to go with a lecture. Seems that he has made the very errors he accuses others of: generalization. Rick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-MAN Posted January 14, 2005 Share Posted January 14, 2005 Nothing wrong with using gold connectors - they don't tarnish! Anyone with an "older" amp can see the results of oxidation on the non-gold RCA plug strips... DM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Klappenberger Posted January 14, 2005 Author Share Posted January 14, 2005 Guys, HOT DOG! I got 'em going! Al K. everybody visualize PWK's little yellow button! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted January 14, 2005 Share Posted January 14, 2005 alright i will take the first plunge and get this one started off where was his proof for any of this??? he says teh burden of proof is the ones who sell this stuff to us right?!??! well they usually use the age old demo of which sounds better and if it makes a difference to you the buyer than you should be sold his proof was lacking in every manner this guy is just a moron who is bitter because he probably got laid off by some cable company that made expensive wires or something lame like that.... and he says that ss is better than tubes??? how many people in this forum will swear by tubes till the day they die? saying they provide a much better sound than ss on their k-horns? here is another thing, measurments may be good and tell if somethign sounds good on paper, but until you have it hooked up and hear it for youself it may or may not be good you can make ss look really good on paper, you can make the sony strde595 look great on paper but when it comes down to it it sounds god aweful compared to a pair of mc intosh amps wiht more chrome than a '67 mustang??? i will skip over cables because that is a weekly battle around here Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Posted January 14, 2005 Share Posted January 14, 2005 Thanks ALK, while I did not understand many of the things he said, I DID agree with his conclusions, except for few things: I bought my CD players and amplifiers based on how they SOUNDED to cheapskate me I did hear slight differences with tweaks, enough to make them worth their while: vibration isolation platforms, a black box even and better cables Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lovemyhorns Posted January 14, 2005 Share Posted January 14, 2005 I betcha he has a Bose system! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rtaylor Posted January 14, 2005 Share Posted January 14, 2005 Some very good basic info there. Thanks Al. Listening to the MK-II's right now as one of the Mac's has blown a fuse. Wish I had a SS amp to use, I'm sick of these glass monsters. Too much heat and distortion. Anyone want these amps? Trade for a good SS sony or something,Randy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndyKlipschFan Posted January 15, 2005 Share Posted January 15, 2005 mlm's, dietary supplements...hahahahahaha Loved the article. All seems very true IMO too. BTW, the Amway "system of your upline" is still a scam of books, tapes, and seminars. This is the downfall of most MLM's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Spinner Posted January 15, 2005 Share Posted January 15, 2005 Randy .. now, now ...tube amps just require a lot of maintenance ... change those tubes regular, set your Bias everytime, and reliability will improve ......... not to plug-in 'an play SS standards, but better say, i'll trade some Crowns for Mac ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Spinner Posted January 15, 2005 Share Posted January 15, 2005 Co-Ax .. for hook up ? why ?? whats wrong with just plain wire ??? doesn't coax have much more capacitace to roll off highs ?? .. Al ...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rtaylor Posted January 16, 2005 Share Posted January 16, 2005 Al.Sure I'll trade my MC's for Crowns,,,,Not! Just having a little fun with you. There are alot of people that use coax for interconnects here. I think that with the lengths that are usually run you don't have to worry about the high frequency loss. I'm sure someone with more technical knowledge will chime in here. I've been thinking about doing some home brew coax's myself. Randy edit: misspelled word Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragonfyr Posted January 16, 2005 Share Posted January 16, 2005 Interesting. Its great because it stimulates exactly the type of analysis that can be productive, provided the debate is not based upon subjective feelings and interpersonal adjectives used to describe physical concepts, and folks stop and actually try to become familiar with at least a modicum of the physics concepts so easily and often misused and misunderstood. I think it would be great if those who were interested in debating (not arguing!) the concepts would do so with a mindset of learning from others as they explore the subjects in a mature dialectic instead of tossing their foregone conclusions like mud balls at the other until the other person capitulates and starts sounding like themselves! And after all, isnt that how too many judge the intelligence of others, by determining when and to what degree the other person starts sounding like a mirror image of their own hot air? To begin with, of course the presentation makes generalizations! Its a PowerPoint bullet point presentation! I define anyone to speak about any topic without employing generalizations! Just recognize the inherent limitations and dont misuse them! Duh! And statements such as his proof was lacking in every manner this guy is just a moron who is bitter because he probably got laid off by some cable company that made expensive wires or something lame like that.... and he says that ss is better than tubes??? how many people in this forum will swear by tubes till the day they die? saying they provide a much better sound than ss Whatever. The debate between tubes and solid state is a wonderful exploration, and I cant help but recognize the digression from a productive debate/exploration of the topic into a peeing contest when I hear such subjective emotional diatribes that do not once refer to any sound understanding of the underlying physics concepts. And here we seem to encounter to all too frequent division along subjective emotional grounds and physics (and I dont mean just specs!). There are many great presentations regarding this topic, and I especially enjoy John Murphys discussions of the all too often assumed statement that tubes exhibit even order harmonics and SS devices exhibit odd order harmonics when driven to clipping. Anyone who adheres to this overly simplistic view needs to do a bit MORE research!!! And besides, if we are addressing the subject of accurate sound REPRODUCTION and not waveform shaping/creation for effects generation, I want to operate my amplifier within its linear range anyway! And if one refers to efficient horn loaded transducers, there should never be the need to operate a device in its non-linear mode! So any discussion of the more desirable types of distortion characteristics in audio applications during the normal use of the equipment must be suspect from the outset! Perhaps you should be asking how to properly match the source with the load before worrying about how it sounds as it is operating in a non-linear mode!! And how many are aware that at 110dB and above, your ears are clipping and effectively square-waving the acoustically perfect sine wave anyway! So many interactive frames of reference! And why does my system seem to sound better after I have drank a lot of beer? Hmmm. And what brand of beer makes is sound best!? And what about margaritas? Yes, a MUCH smoother response curve! And another debate! The world is a grand squiggle, made predictable by our imposing our logical graph paper over it, where the variations of the squiggle within the reticule, when looked at on a relatively minute scale, becomes amazingly and seemingly predictable! That is, until you get small enough and enter the quantum realm and all of that well behaved predictability flies out the proverbial window. So the debate between digital and analog is also a valid discussion. Is one absolutely better? Well, like it or not, the world is analog. But once converted in to the digital realm (assuming of course that it is done with sufficient accurately and completeness! Ah, the rub!) signals are much more easily processed with a minimum of artifacts when compared to the additional complexities of analog processing. But does this make digital better? Perhaps we need to qualify our intentions and desired outcomes more carefully! After all, all answers are conditional upon the proper questions being asked. A point too often missed in the rush to offer simple conclusions! And so many who are willing to jump to offer conclusions without being familiar with so many viable options! Yes coax can be used to great advantage (IF you know what you are doing!) and copper has a LOWER resistivity than gold, all things being equal - despite claims to the contrary made just the other day in this forum! It is surprising what possibilities exist when you begin to understand the physics underlying the principles and dont simply rely on emotional reactions! But there are many conditional factors that may make one approach/solution better or worse in a particular situation that may not hold true in another situation! And it would indeed be refreshing if more folks were open to discussing, exploring and LEARNING something rather than simply making grand (and too often erroneous!) pronouncements. Acoustics in particular is an exciting area as, unlike so many of the other areas of science where the majority of the major discoveries have become old hat and standardized, because so many things have only recently been opened to our understanding with developments such as Dick Heysers work in Time Domain Spectrometry and the many still to be understood and implemented concepts that remain to be resolved as a result of this and other discoveries! And lest you all are so quick to dismiss SS devices so quicklyyou might be interested to know that Paul Klipsch almost universally utilized Crowns smaller D series amps to demonstrate the La Scalas in presentations. And no, that is NOT to say that there are not high quality amps in both camps! So how about a reasoned and INFORMED discussion based upon sound reasoning and a little less emotion? There seems to be so many pronouncements and very few questions! At the risk of stepping on a few egos, I think the article raises some good points for exploration in areas that far too many seem to have staunch religious beliefs, but who in fact do not quite sufficiently understand some of the more subtle nuances of said topics. And what more basic topic suggests this then the ongoing religious war over interconnects!? And I cant but laugh when I was told in effect that the physics of the issues just gets in the way of understanding them! Talk about a reason for concern! Just where did I put that Ouija board and the number for the psychic hotline!?? If this forum is to be a source of learned discussion, I am in. But if it is simply a soapbox for emotional tirades I can be quite content with the Syn-Aud-Con listserv and discussing topics with Dr. Petronis, Don Keele, Bruce Howse, John Prohs, Pat Brown, Russ Berger, Don & the ever wonderful Carolyn Davis, Dave Wilkerson and so many more deserving mentors at the Syn-Aud-Con, etc. functions, trade shows and online forums or just on the phone. So, instead of emotional responses to the topics, how about responses encouraging the serious discussion and healthy debate (NOT emotional arguing) in an attempt to better understand the issues? Audio discussions don't have to sound like silly emotional political and religious arguments! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Spinner Posted January 16, 2005 Share Posted January 16, 2005 you said ........PEEing ! !~ ... yer gonna get Banned ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragonfyr Posted January 16, 2005 Share Posted January 16, 2005 oops! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted January 16, 2005 Share Posted January 16, 2005 how about rather than using physics and science to describe the outcome of sound, you actually test it with your ears, considering that your ears should be considered your most powerful tool when listening to speakers. Using meters adn expensive equipment and testing every possible parameter on earth of it a person should reley on their ears. The ears will make the final judgment of everything. If your spl meter gives you a better read by moving your speakers 1 foot over, but it doesn't sound as good as they did before are you going to move them because your spl meter gave a flatter curve being moved over a foot? When it comes to comparing ss and tubes you can argue all day that specs and physics and science prove one thing or the other by using complex equations, but your ears tell you that one sounds better even though science and physics says it doesn't. Things can look great on paper, but until you sit down and listen for yourself, that judgement can not be made. You want to have educational debates and learn, but you have made it very clear that you just want to teach us, and furthermore making a joke about someones past with a cable company should be ok. The man who gave that seminar is actually a smart guy and I know who he is, but that doesn't mean I can't joke about him because I disagree with his ideas. He says ss is better and tubes and I say well there are plenty of people in this same forum that think otherwise because they have let their ears decide the issue for themselves. You say that science proves SS is better than tubes, and yes maybe on paper it does, but does that make all the guys in here that prefer the sound of tubes over SS wrong? I think not, because most of them if not all had SS before they had tubes and all swear by tubes and would never go back. They let their ears decide and they used test equipment to help them optimize the sound, they used it as a tool to make improvements, not to make all their decisions. It would appear to me, that you and I approach audio in a completly different sense, I want to enjoy it, make JOKES, and just bs with the guys on here about whatever and pick up stuff along the way. I'm not sure what your intentions are here, but I am here to use this forum as a way of just talking with people with similiar interterests, not be told how wrong and uneducated I am, because you do not know me or anythign about me or my educational background. In the end, to me at least, it is all about the ears. If you really want to bring science in it, then use it as a tool to HELP make your system sound better. But then again I am probably wrong because I should let other people tell me what sounds good because science, physics, and spec sheets tell me that its better than what my ears tell me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rtaylor Posted January 16, 2005 Share Posted January 16, 2005 OK,enough of the heavy. Now what if anything does anyone have anything to say about coax interconnects? Shi*te. Have heard a lot of good things about them and not a lot of bad. Grasshopper out! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spkrdctr Posted January 19, 2005 Share Posted January 19, 2005 Never talk science around audiophiles. It ruins the whole conversation. Talk "magic" and by golly you have them hooked! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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