Audio Flynn Posted January 22, 2005 Share Posted January 22, 2005 I pretty much ought to just kick myself for not paying closer attention to Leok when he says something. It is just he is quiet ( compared to most of us nutcases), technical and direct. Leok makes Mark Deneen's writing seem as witty as a Saturday Night Live script. About 2 months ago I was on another tweaking deversion or delusion, I am not sure which. SOme thread about AC grunge came up. I have Monster and Panamax entry level surge protectors in the house and thought I wanted to look low cost at some industrial stuff like the Furman. Leok mentioned an office environment product from Belkin. Last weekend I picked up "The Isolator" model F5C980-TEL from Belkin (I will attach a scan of the box). I have not tried it with TT yet but it has a very pronounced postitive effect on upsampled Red Book CD playback. After about 15 CDs impression... -less digital fatigue -a little deeper and wider soundstage -more detail; bass guitar most easy to identify as improved Of course poorly mastered CDs sound even more disappointing. I consider this phonomena the sign of a great update. All of the hard rock electric guitar I listenend to was outstanding in attack and decay. Massed strings in The Doors Concerto; Kennedy violin soloist with the Prague Symphony Orchestra arranged by Jaz Coleman (Decca Records) was effortless and earthy. The wood top of the solo violin's character was defineable. It seemed like you could ocassionally hear Kennedy breathe in during quieter passages from the orchestra. For you old farts I tried disc 2 of the the Steve Winwood box set. The Blind Faith was not particularly well recorded, unfortunately. Three songs are included that are from Traffic "John Barleycorn Must Die"; a very solid recording and very nicely remastered. The title cut guitar and flute are pretty close to being in the room with me. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ I figured there is defineitely something to making sure the house power was of better quality. Getting the noise generated from the myriad of house hold appliances. As always; casing jitter out of the digital world. The $ 300 plus audio promoted brands of power managment always seemed to be of reasonable objectives, but allot of cash for what benifit? The Belkin unit was $ 69 at Office Max. A hell of a bargain. Thanks Leo! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audio Flynn Posted January 22, 2005 Author Share Posted January 22, 2005 Basic specs from the outside of the box. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3dzapper Posted January 22, 2005 Share Posted January 22, 2005 Thanks for the info Rick. Guess who's going to Office Max after the snowstorm. The roads will probably still be closed Monday. I've been prepping the bride for a new power center for the whole entertainment system. Two of those should just fit the bill. Rick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audio Flynn Posted January 22, 2005 Author Share Posted January 22, 2005 At the price, I was considering getting just a bit more isolation by getting a second one and having all the digital devices in the 2 channel set up on one and all the tubes and TT on the second one. I have no idea how it would help HT. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3dzapper Posted January 22, 2005 Share Posted January 22, 2005 Rick, You have a PM. Rick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audio Flynn Posted January 22, 2005 Author Share Posted January 22, 2005 http://www.staples.com/Catalog/Browse/Sku.asp?PageType=1&Sku=460233 At Staples.com. $ 68 +++++++++++++ My Saved Ads U.S. Sales Item Price Dealer Belkin (Case/CPU Accessories) - Belkin 'The Isolator' with IPF 8 Outlet Surge Protector Model F5C980-TEL Retail -F5C980-TEL Premium surge protection with 2960 joules of energy protection and 2 line phone protection. Dealer # - N82E16812120208 Man # - F5C980TEL TotalCost $51.00 Price - $46 Shipping - $5 FedEx Newegg.com info ... 800-390-1119 909-395-9046 La Puente , CA Winner of Bizrate Circle of Excellence Award 2001 & 2003. PLATINUM PLUS Customer Satisfaction Rating - Resellerratings. 10,000+ computer hardware & software. FAST shipping. Rush order processing available. Order online 24/7. Save This Ad Updated - 1/13, 4:43 PM Even cheaper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted January 22, 2005 Share Posted January 22, 2005 Rick Flynn, You really have to quit drinking Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artto Posted January 22, 2005 Share Posted January 22, 2005 Sorry Rick, but I must disagree with you on this one. What have you been smoking? Your power would have to be extremely bad for something like that to make an audible difference, and even then, if its that bad, its not the right product to correct it. There are basically 3 different types of power "protection/conditioning", the power conditioner, a voltage regulator, AND a balanced power isolation transformer. It's very unlikely that you will ever need all three, mainly because voltage regulators and balanced power isolation transformers also usually incorporate some power protection features. Which units you will need depends on whether you only want good general protection, or you have specific problems to solve. Devices that offer power protection (or power conditioning) protect from potential damage caused by voltage spikes and--in some cases--extreme voltage from faulty wiring. Power protection devices do NOT stabilize line voltage. Low voltage or over voltage conditions must be corrected by a voltage regulator, which uses voltage-sensing circuits and multi-tap transformers to keep voltage stable at 120V or 240V within a specified narrow range. There are some units like the Topaz Line2 that I use that accomplish this without "switching" between multiple transformer taps (like the $$$$ but inferior Monster Cable units) All sound equipment, analog or digital, whether for live performance or studio, should have basic protection against power spikes and surges, along with basic EMI/RFI isolation (which is what you have). This is essential, because spikes and surges can damage your equipment. EMI (electromagnetic interference) and RFI (radio frequency interference) will not damage your equipment, but can cause unpredictable and unacceptable fleeting noises and -- if strong enough -- ruin a recording or performance. Spikes are short pulses of energy with voltages as high as 6000 volts. Though they usually last only a few milliseconds, they nevertheless can cause damage to sensitive solid-state components. Spikes also can foul switch contacts and degrade wiring insulation over time. In some cases, with some audio equipment, spikes can cause audible pops or clicks. Worst-case spikes are caused by nearby lightning strikes. This type of protection is usually provided by a "power conditioner" (which is what you have). RFI is radio frequency interference, while EMI is electromagnetic interference. Both refer to low-level signals picked up by audio circuits, either through the AC power lines or through unbalanced microphone, interconnect cables or musical instrument cables. Though neither EMI nor RFI is likely to cause damage to equipment, both can generate sufficiently strong signals to ruin a recording or interrupt a performance. Power conditioners and voltage regulators both usually incorporate EMI/RFI suppression circuits which keep such spurious signals out of audio circuits -- provided it comes in on the AC line. (RFI and EMI can also enter via audio cables , especially if their shielding is damaged. Power conditioners do not help with that problem.) Protection against sags and brownouts is provided by voltage regulator. I would be very careful with what kind of UPS (uninterruptable power supply as used on computers) you might use, especially if you decide to use a regulated power supply. Voltage regulators ARE NOT DESIGNED FOR FAST-RISETIME WAVEFORMS AND MAY SUSTAIN SERIOUS DAMAGE! In any case, I strongly advise against using square or stepped wave power supplies with audio equipment. If you use a UPS, get the higher quality kind that produces sine waves. Ive even seen situations where a UPS is totally ineffective because of out of balance phase differences in the incoming power coming into the building from the outside power transformers. The balanced isolation transformer (such as Furman's IT-1220) serves an entirely different function. While it does provide basic spike, surge, and RFI protection, and even advanced protection like Extreme Voltage Shutdown, it does not regulate voltage. However, its primary purpose is to reduce hum and buzz in low-noise audio and video systems (which is not what the Belkin F5C980-TEL does). It does this by providing transformer balanced AC power. AC power that comes from the utility company and your wall socket is NOT balanced (regardless of how good you think your utility's power is). Balancing the AC power source significantly lowers the noise floor (typically 16 dB) and can make a dramatic difference -- particularly in digital recording studios. This type of power, when run around a studio, does not induce hum into nearby audio wiring, because the two conductors induce equal and opposite voltages that cancel each other out. Similarly, ground currents are all but eliminated by the same common-mode cancellation effect. Balanced power can eliminate the need to adopt complex and difficult-to-implement star-ground systems, heavy bus bars, and ground rods in audio and video systems. In sum, all audio systems should be protected at least, by power conditioning. What you have is simply an inexpensive surge protector, with SOME amount of filtering for RFI/EMI LINE noise, if noise is present (it won't do anything for "air-bourne" RFI/EMI). This will in no way affect the sound qualities in the way you have described, simply because it has nothing to do with those things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allan Songer Posted January 22, 2005 Share Posted January 22, 2005 You are correct. My experience has been then "power conditoners" in general rob amplifiers of dynamics to varying degrees. Any benefits I have heard were always with preamps and sources. Power "regenerators" are another story--I've been powering my CD player, preamp and turntable with a PS Audio PP300 for the last several years. I bought mine for $799 when they were introduced and it was worth MORE! The power in my old neighborhood was LOUSY, often dropping to 105 volts which led to some pretty nasty sounding audio (a CD player than hummmmed like a banshee among other things). The "Power Plant" feeds your gear with a "perfect" 117 volt 60hz supply. This cured the "bad power" problem. And as you can imagine, the turntable LOVES the PP300 as well. My amps are still plugged directly into the wall. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
analogman Posted January 22, 2005 Share Posted January 22, 2005 Anything that makes your system sound better to your ears for only $69.00, or .69 cents for that matter, is worth the money. As for protection, be realistic, as artto pointed out. It's an elaborate fuse. Bear in mind however, that direct hits from lightening can put the most modern cities in the dark, that is why you have good home owners insurance. As always, Analogman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audio Flynn Posted January 22, 2005 Author Share Posted January 22, 2005 As for protection, be realistic, as artto pointed out. It's an elaborate fuse. ++++++++++++++ I did not call the subject "surge protector" purposely. Read closer please. My house has had serious surges twice in the past 10 years due to lightning striking less than 100 yards away. Both cases were so severe I had to file claims wth the insurance company for my homeowners. I unplug all of my equipment during serious storms and vacations. Surge protectors have limited effectiveness at best. These thread comments focus only on a budget concious strategy to reduce (power filtering) the EMI and RFI effects in the AC from the sum of the motors and digital equipment throughout your house. My house is 50 years old and has 4 kids worth of poorly designed and built electronics plugged in all over the place. Likely there is EMI contamination of the AC to some degree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
analogman Posted January 22, 2005 Share Posted January 22, 2005 ---------------- On 1/22/2005 8:51:28 PM Audio Flynn wrote: As for protection, be realistic, as artto pointed out. It's an elaborate fuse. ++++++++++++++ I did not call the subject "surge protector" purposely. Read closer please. My house has had serious surges twice in the past 10 years due to lightning striking less than 100 yards away. Both cases were so severe I had to file claims wth the insurance company for my homeowners. I unplug all of my equipment during serious storms and vacations. Surge protectors have limited effectiveness at best. These thread comments focus only on a budget concious strategy to reduce (power filtering) the EMI and RFI effects in the AC from the sum of the motors and digital equipment throughout your house. My house is 50 years old and has 4 kids worth of poorly designed and built electronics plugged in all over the place. Likely there is EMI contamination of the AC to some degree. ---------------- You should read for comprehension and meaning. I was supporting your purchase 100%, on at least three levels. I was pointing out that as good as it may be, (dubious), even the esotericaly priced stuff that others were promoting doesn't have a chance against "Acts Of God". I don't know what it is about males and audio that brings to the surface so much insecurity. I, myself use the Monster HTS 2000, a more expensive version of the same thing you bought, and had told the wife I was going to buy the Belkin based upon your thorough post with pictures. Had already heard about it prior, your experience helped to confirm, at least to my satisfaction. You got the same thing I got for half the price. Where's the rub. You people can't read. Thanks for the heads up, Analogman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
analogman Posted January 22, 2005 Share Posted January 22, 2005 "One more One", Anything that makes your system sound better to your ears for only $69.00, or .69 cents for that matter, is worth the money. As for protection, be realistic, as artto pointed out. It's an elaborate fuse. Bear in mind however, that direct hits from lightening can put the most modern cities in the dark, that is why you have good home owners insurance. As always, Analogman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nicholtl Posted January 22, 2005 Share Posted January 22, 2005 ---------------- On 1/22/2005 7:17:14 PM Allan Songer wrote: You are correct. My experience has been then "power conditoners" in general rob amplifiers of dynamics to varying degrees. Any benefits I have heard were always with preamps and sources. Power "regenerators" are another story--I've been powering my CD player, preamp and turntable with a PS Audio PP300 for the last several years. I bought mine for $799 when they were introduced and it was worth MORE! The power in my old neighborhood was LOUSY, often dropping to 105 volts which led to some pretty nasty sounding audio (a CD player than hummmmed like a banshee among other things). The "Power Plant" feeds your gear with a "perfect" 117 volt 60hz supply. This cured the "bad power" problem. And as you can imagine, the turntable LOVES the PP300 as well. My amps are still plugged directly into the wall. ---------------- Allan, I'm not sure if your model is of the older variety, but I know the most recent crop of power regenerators (like my P-1000) has a user-selectable hertz setting, volt setting, and multiwave setting. Personally, I keep it locked at 120 volts and on Autowave, which I feel sounds better than the also-recommended 80-90hz range. That is what Paul McGowan recommends, if you have power-hungry components plugged in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
analogman Posted January 22, 2005 Share Posted January 22, 2005 a fool and his money... Analogman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audio Flynn Posted January 22, 2005 Author Share Posted January 22, 2005 Analog man; The "be realistic" was not intended to be sacastic? Just trying to find reasonable values for NEWBIES and those of modest means, including myself. The recent Stereophile has an editorial on how being over priced and snobish continues to decline the music and audio business. Budget items may not be in vogue, but hopefully have a future purpose for getting potential hobbyists involved who read this forum who are "on the fence". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrot Posted January 22, 2005 Share Posted January 22, 2005 ---------------- On 1/22/2005 10:35:19 PM Audio Flynn wrote: The recent Stereophile has an editorial on how being over priced and snobish continues to decline the music and audio business. ---------------- Is it April 1st already? Stereophile is talking about overpriced equipment and snobbery? Wouldn't the audiophile world cease to exist overnight if outlandish prices and the attitude disappeared? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
analogman Posted January 22, 2005 Share Posted January 22, 2005 ---------------- On 1/22/2005 10:35:19 PM Audio Flynn wrote: Analog man; The "be realistic" was not intended to be sacastic? Just trying to find reasonable values for NEWBIES and those of modest means, including myself. The recent Stereophile has an editorial on how being over priced and snobish continues to decline the music and audio business. Budget items may not be in vogue, but hopefully have a future purpose for getting potential hobbyists involved who read this forum who are "on the fence". ---------------- ____________________________________________________________ I don't know what I can do or say, at this point, to help you realize that I CONCUR. These are my words from another thread, another topic, asked by a "NEWBIE", (God, I hate that "new age" adjective): ____________________________________________________________ analogman Insane Poster Total Posts: 330 Last Post: 1/22/2005 Member Since: 7/25/2002 Subscribe to this author ---------------- On 1/19/2005 5:51:25 AM silversport wrote: What about the Outlaw Audio amps??? I am new to all this and would like to know what your thoughts are, those of you with superior amps and more money than I (...and I bet that's a lot, here.) Seriously, any help would be appreciated. 7100?...755?... Bill ---------------- Don't lose sight of the fact that HIGH PRICE does NOT guarantee HIGH PERFORMANCE. They are OFTEN mutually exclusive. Never tender apology for what makes YOUR ears HAPPY. Respectfully, Analogman Revisions : 0 / Posted: 1/22/2005 5:42:33 PM / IP: Recorded On another note, what is "sacastic"? Is your wife the better speller of you two, maybe you should let her post for you? That's SARCASM Advocate for (and still, after all these years) a NOVICE, Respectfully, Analogman P.S. I'm SO OLD, I can remember when people spoke ENGLISH! (A SARCASTIC remark) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leok Posted January 23, 2005 Share Posted January 23, 2005 Rick, As I mentioned in my email response yesterday, glad you have found the Belkin so effective. I am very happy with its capabilities and certainly the price. As for its causing a reduction in dynamics: since both of my tube amps are class A, their power supplies are essentially constant current so there is no line voltage power draw change with change in audio power output. As far as the P6D goes, I designed it to be immune to brief power fluctuations, as I think any well designed audio supply should be. I did, however, notice some change in perceived dynamics and focused on a particularly affected string quartet cello passage. What I found was the extra dynamics with unfiltered power was noise modulation riding on the cello signal. The extra dynamics did not sound like cello. With the filter, that extra grunge was significantly reduced and the cello harmonics and bow sounds that had been most affected by the modulation sounded much more like cello harmonics and bow sounds. The most impressive impact of all, and the reason line filtering was suggested to me in the first place, is that the sibilances on Bob Dylan's "Bringing It All Back Home" both the older CD and the newer SACD, are no linger distorted as they are on my systems without the filters. Massed strings sound much smoother and more like the real thing. Leo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrot Posted January 24, 2005 Share Posted January 24, 2005 Some OfficeMax stores have these on clearance for $30. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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