maxg Posted February 17, 2005 Share Posted February 17, 2005 During my many musings on the subject of choosing my next TT many of you were kind enough to profer suggestions as to alternatives I might want to consider. I, of course, was rude enough to follow my own path in the end and go a route less travelled by. Some really went out of their way to help (Larry, Gary, Edmund and others if you are reading I really did appreciate it) but to no avail. Amongst the many and various propositons was one that rather stood out from the rest. In some ways it was the most interesting, most logical, best based on logical thought. The suggestion was Dean's. Simply put, and to paraphrase, "Dont be an idiot. Spend the money on speakers instead!" I didn't. I am glad. I was right. Here is why.... About 3 or 4 years ago now I was at the Clearaudio distributor and they had a setup in one of the rooms with a Cd player for people to try out XRCD's - which I had just discovered. The next door room had an analogue setup in it (the big clearaudio with commensurate equipment - except speakers, more on that later). On a whim I asked to hear what all the fuss was with vinyl. Tony, who was with me (was it ever thus - sometimes I am not sure I married SWMBO at all - maybe twas Tony under the veil all the time) advised strongly against it. Vinyl was the dark side to us then - an unknown quantity and something we did not want to explore. Anyway I ignored Tony's advice (are we starting to see a pattern here?) and we went in. After some faffing about we got to hear a brand new record on this top end Clearaudio through, ridiculously enough, Speakers that cost about $800 new. If you dont regard price as an indicator of quality - fair enough - but let me say this - crap speakers - items I would not have bought at half the price. This is their standard setup to sell Clearaudio - so that no-one thinks it is the speakers doing the magic - clever huh! Here's the thing. The sound I heard that night was incredible. Everything seemed to have so much impact and be so real. The thwack of the drums sent shivers down the spine, the strumming of the double bass seemed to travel straight down to my toes. It was tangible sound. Sound you could taste in the air. It enveloped and embraced you leaving no doubt of the sheer majesty of what your ears and body were witnessing. Time passed. I forgot that experience. Nothing I have ever heard before or since reminded me sufficiently of it, on any system to stir my memories. Till last night. Last night - after yet another setup battle I closed in on perfection. I am sure I am not there yet. This is definitely the wrong cartridge for the arm and yet it can be made to work - I am getting there and will soon know exactly how to get it spot on. Thank god I decided to play an old record of Booker T and the MG's. It is the only record I own where the whole is seriously off centre. The arm wouldn't, couldn't track it, even from the first notes. I watched in amazement as the suspended arm zigzagged back and forth desperately seeking purchase on the groove - and failing miserably. I swear the back of this piece of quartz was moving half and inch side to side. What is the relevence of that? Simple. The cantilever wasn't budging a tenth of an inch. The tail was wagging the dog - more clearly and obviously than any other test could have demonstrated - I had lucked out and found the issue. I pondered this for a while, thinking whether to disassemble the thing yet again and afix the tracking weights to the front of the arm and the back to both balance it and raise the mass. I may yet do that. Then it struck me - during the 2nd installation the Clearaudio Man pronounced that the arm needs at least 2 grammes of tracking force to work properly and he had set it to that. With a high compliance cartridge like a Clearaudio he is completely correct. You need the mass to control the movement of the cantilever relative to the arm and so enable the whole to keep the tip in contact with the vinyl. With a low compliance cartridge this is the worst thing you could possibly do. Dont run the thing slightly higher than the recommended weight - run it lower - as low as you can get away with, thereby denying the tip sufficent purchase on the vinyl surface to wag the dog. I dropped the weight to 1.7 grammes and tried listening. I still have further scope to reduce it (the Shelter will track at 1.4) but this was a test merely to see if the tracking improved. It did - but that was not the revelation. Remember me mentioning above the sound I had forgotten? It is here - and in my living room. More remarkably still the sweetness I had enjoyed with my previous setup was there with it. Play Tchaikovski's Violin Concerto and it is as sweet and light as I ever desired - just packed with detail I never knew. Switch to the Rach 3 and there is that impact - bang on the piano keybaord as Ashkenazi's hands descend with venom and intent. Thing is - this was the poorer quality recording of the Rach 3 that I own. The other got damaged beyond listenability and this one has always been barely listenable to. Despite this (and I cant stress to highly the difference) last nights performance was the best I ever witnessed in my house. I was amazed. I expected the table to do great things with good recordings but not for it to turn average recordings into super recordings. Over the course of 2 hours I threw dozens of albums on and sampled them. Good ones were Brilliant - but average and even poor ones were stunningly improved too. I now need to regrade my entire collection. Things I had thought unlistenable to are now the food of love. And so to Dean's original point. Maybe a pair of speakers (for similar money)would have made a similar difference but somehow I doubt it. Upgrading is about finding the weakest part of your playback chain - the bottleneck to quality and addressing it. Of course in reality you are merely moving the bottleneck - but one would hope on a higher plane. Source / System / Room and music are equal partners in determining the quality of the sonic experience. I had done something amazing with the project - too much really - but it could never truely disguise it humble origins. Without my really knowing it the table had been the weakpoint and my sound has left forwards as a result. So next time you are looking to upgrade and thinking of amps, speakers and so on - give a thought to source - it can make all the difference in the world. Just all me Paul from now on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunnysal Posted February 17, 2005 Share Posted February 17, 2005 "Upgrading is about finding the weakest part of your playback chain - the bottleneck to quality and addressing it. Of course in reality you are merely moving the bottleneck - but one would hope on a higher plane." Max this is brilliant! That is exactly right, each person´s system needs to be analyzed in its particular environment to identify its weak points and have those adressed, that is why I have always felt that giving upgrade advice to others is almost worthless, if someone asks "which amp is best?", etc. it is hard to answer due to the need to know intimately the users existing system ,environment and listening preferences BUT ALSO one must assume he or she has performed the correct analysis to determine which component needs attention in the reproduction chain. well said! tony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxg Posted February 17, 2005 Author Share Posted February 17, 2005 Thanks Tony - but I am Max! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrMcGoo Posted February 17, 2005 Share Posted February 17, 2005 Max, I agreed with Dean that speakers would be a better investment. It sounds like you are a very happy idiot which is what this hobby is all about! Only the owner/listener can analyze thier own room/system in light of their own litening habits and tastes. I would be very unhappy with LPs due to their necessay care and feeding. Others get much closer to nirvana with LPs. It sounds like you will be happy with the tweaking for quite some time. From the looks of the turntable, it will be with you for a lifetime. Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted February 17, 2005 Share Posted February 17, 2005 Max, I have a hint for you. You can leave out "long" in your thread title we know your posts are long Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-MAN Posted February 17, 2005 Share Posted February 17, 2005 Max, vinyl over digital? Upgrading SOURCE before SPEAKERS? Mercy! Have you NO idea of WHAT YOU ARE SAYING?! Get ahold of yourself, man! DM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted February 17, 2005 Share Posted February 17, 2005 in much large part i agree with max completly, you must eleminate your weakest link adn if your speakers are not your chinc in the chain then that is not the thing that you need to upgrade. I think that is a very simple concept. EDIT: i think the term long in max's posts is a complete undersatement Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunnysal Posted February 17, 2005 Share Posted February 17, 2005 huh? I am tony. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gilbert Posted February 17, 2005 Share Posted February 17, 2005 Jesus Christ!, Max, now I gotta go to the eye doctor after reading all that. Yea!, and Craig was right, you can omitt the long, it's understood. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpm Posted February 17, 2005 Share Posted February 17, 2005 I agree with you Max. From now on the bulk of my money goes to the source, then amps, and finally speakers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxg Posted February 18, 2005 Author Share Posted February 18, 2005 Sorry guys - about the endlessness of some of my posts - but there is a lot to share!! Frankly setting this arm up - with this cartridge is just about one of the trickiest things I have ever done. I am shooting in the dark here - with very few guidelines to go by. To be brief - last night I did the additional weight thing and the arm now tracks the off-centre record reasonably well. I dont think I will ever get it set up to be as easy as a "normal" arm - it will always be fussy about the vinyl - but in the main the records I adore are in good enough condition to get away with it. At some point I will add a second arm to play the poorer condition stuff - at least the table can take 3 arms!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fgarib Posted February 18, 2005 Share Posted February 18, 2005 Max, Sounds cool! And don't listen to the others... I, for one, look forward to your posts, and the "long" description just leads me to click on the link just that much faster! More to learn. I don't know what the fuss is about?! I thought it was a foregone conclusion that source quality is first and foremost above anything else. And then you think about the speakers. I think Linn had it right from the get-go when they started to build their entire company around the source rather than anything else. I think that is why their uni-disk player now sells for over $4,500. Good for you, max. Taking the road less travelled. -F Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Speedball Posted February 18, 2005 Share Posted February 18, 2005 Source DOES mean a lot to me....My modest step up to a Denon #2900 from a run of the mill 100 dollar DVD player was huge! That ClearAudio player looks like it came from the planet Mars.......look's good! source is good..source is good..source is good.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Robinson Posted February 18, 2005 Share Posted February 18, 2005 ---------------- On 2/17/2005 2:33:15 PM sunnysal wrote: huh? I am tony. ---------------- I'll be a blockhead and explain this to you What you said was: "well said! tony" And he said, "I am Max" He was just being his usual impetuous self. If you figured this all out already, pardon the redundancy. I just didn't want you to lose any more sleep than what was necessary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxg Posted February 18, 2005 Author Share Posted February 18, 2005 I thought he said "well said Dean" At least that is what I remember from yesterday's reading - but it is now about 5 pm - I got no sleep last night - I just finished re-writing a nightmare report and I ate a big lunch. feelin' sleepy now... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunnysal Posted February 18, 2005 Share Posted February 18, 2005 through the magic of the electronic age, what once said "well said dean" now says "well said max"...big brother lives...lol, tony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxg Posted February 18, 2005 Author Share Posted February 18, 2005 ---------------- On 2/18/2005 11:40:54 AM sunnysal wrote: through the magic of the electronic age, what once said "well said dean" now says "well said max"...big brother lives...lol, tony ---------------- It is sneaky stuff like that that makes people so mad they just throw the phone down!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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