cyclonecj Posted February 17, 2005 Share Posted February 17, 2005 My school theater has a set of wireless mics with the lapel clip mic. We have a severe feedback problem, & one cure is to get the mic closer to the actors/singers mouth. They currently have to tape it to the side of their mouth, which is ugly for obvious reasons, & still does not work well. By the time we get the mixer volume up high enough to be heard, it starts to feedback. We are looking at buying the replacement headset mics which place the pickup right in front of the mouth using a clear tube. However, they are $260 each, & we need 16. It is almost the same price to replace the whole transmitter receiver package. I cant believe the mic alone is that much. Also, yes, we are already using compression, feedback limiters etc. It helped a lot, but still not enough. The theater & speaker design here is really bad (still working on getting Klipsch in there). We even had some pro's come in & could not fix it. They all said we need the headset. One guy said to just watch any concert.... the singers are always "eating" the mic.... it just has to be in front of the mouth. Any ideas on where we can get these at a reasonable price? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dodger Posted February 17, 2005 Share Posted February 17, 2005 You have a PM. Need make, model wanted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minn_male42 Posted February 17, 2005 Share Posted February 17, 2005 ---------------- On 2/17/2005 4:21:34 PM cyclonecj wrote: My school theater has a set of wireless mics with the lapel clip mic. We have a severe feedback problem, & one cure is to get the mic closer to the actors/singers mouth. They currently have to tape it to the side of their mouth, which is ugly for obvious reasons, & still does not work well. By the time we get the mixer volume up high enough to be heard, it starts to feedback. We are looking at buying the replacement headset mics which place the pickup right in front of the mouth using a clear tube. However, they are $260 each, & we need 16. It is almost the same price to replace the whole transmitter receiver package. I cant believe the mic alone is that much. Also, yes, we are already using compression, feedback limiters etc. It helped a lot, but still not enough. The theater & speaker design here is really bad (still working on getting Klipsch in there). We even had some pro's come in & could not fix it. They all said we need the headset. One guy said to just watch any concert.... the singers are always "eating" the mic.... it just has to be in front of the mouth. Any ideas on where we can get these at a reasonable price? ---------------- there are two possible sources of problems here... 1. the speakers in the theater are not far enough forward and the mics are picking up the amplified sound too easily... 2. you are using omni-directional mics that are picking up the sound equally from all directions.... problem #1 might be tough to solve if the speakers are mounted on or in the wall.... problem #2 - switch to a cardiod or hyper-cardiod lapel mic that has a more directional pick-up pattern... it would be much cheaper than headset mics... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cyclonecj Posted February 17, 2005 Author Share Posted February 17, 2005 Russ... The speakers are mounted to the top of the stage opening facing directly into the cat-walk. They were also mounted vertical, so they can not even face down.... really... they go straight into the catwalk. These are the same speakers I talked about a while ago... they are very low quality, bad sounding speakers. Last time, I used a pair of EV 15" monitors sitting on the catwalk, facing down at 45deg...... It helped more than any other mod we have tried... plus they are very good sounding speakers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ben. Posted February 17, 2005 Share Posted February 17, 2005 Peaky response is more an enemy here than directionality. A flat omni will exhibit better performance for this application than a cardioid or (even worse) a hyper-card. Those cheap speakers are probably working against you as well. Also, use as little compression as you can, while retaining even levels. Use of compression will always hurt your gain-before-feedback. My suggestion would be to start from scratch. Dial the compression all the way out. Set any EQ flat. Go from there. Bring things up until they just start to ring, and address that frequency selectively. I'd bet the school's graphics are pretty hacked up. This would cause phase shift & resonances that will increase feedback. Gates would be a good idea, too. 16 channels of gates can be had for a lot less than 16 great mics. There are tricks to be learned in using a gate to get them to sound natural, but they'd be very effective. No sense in having 16 open mics all night, if 10 of them only sing in the chorus, and have a few lines of dialog at most. If you can't swing the gates, get a script by the desk and write in mute cues (just don't miss the cues, or you're in deep doo). If your mixer has mute groups, or sub-mix busses, consider using them to accomplish this where appropriate. Good luck. Feedback sucks. Keep in mind there are multiple contributors to feedback. Don't focus on any one issue to the exclusion of the others. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minn_male42 Posted February 17, 2005 Share Posted February 17, 2005 what brand mics are you using? i could suggest some good choices within the same brand line..... i sold pro audio equipment at a distributor for four years. we handled shure, akg, and audio-technica wireless systems Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnA Posted February 17, 2005 Share Posted February 17, 2005 Dialing out the compression and tricks is always a good idea. We can't see your venue, but I think it sounds like a reflectivity and response peak problem. Obviously, the speakers are part of it. The fix will be somewhat systemic, like absorbant panels and diffusers, relocating the main speakers and some careful EQ, pulling down the frequencies where the feedback occurs. Don't forget that placing a mic too close to a boundary (cheek?) can enhance feedback. I would look at directional mics, but don't get carried away and buy decent ones. We have outstanding performance and very little feedback from Shure wireless mics at church. I'll get the model numbers, if you want. Why do you think headset mics would look better then a lapel mic taped to someone's cheek? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cyclonecj Posted February 17, 2005 Author Share Posted February 17, 2005 You guys have all said what has already been done..... every time, the cure has been the mics... Again, we have 16 wireless packs (shure & Sennheiser) using the tiny lapel mics that came with them. Excellent sound, & they work perfect when held in directly in front of the mouth. However, during the performance, they have been using clear medical tape to hold them to their cheeks, not in direct path of the voice. From here, we have to turn up the mixer input as far as possible before feedback, & keep a finger on the main volume. A replacement mic is about $50. The same mic with a headset is $260.....?????? We are actually looking for a way to make a headset using the current mics...like a hairband & a stiff wire/tube? BTW.. we are using sound que's & only bring up the active mics....we have a new Midas 32 channel mixer with 4 sub channels.... Very nice unit! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cyclonecj Posted February 17, 2005 Author Share Posted February 17, 2005 ---------------- On 2/17/2005 8:06:09 PM John Albright wrote: Why do you think headset mics would look better then a lapel mic taped to someone's cheek? ---------------- It's not only for looks.... we NEED to get the mic in front of the voice path. From the audience, everyone is wondering what it is... Most people know what a headset is, & why we are using it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minn_male42 Posted February 17, 2005 Share Posted February 17, 2005 what model are the shure mics?.... i mean the exact mic element... shure offers 5 differnt lav mics... WL50, WL51, WL93, WL183, WL184, WL185 the 50 and 51 are pretty expensive... the WL93 is a very small mic and omni-directional.... from the cost that you cited... i'd be willing to bet that you have WL93 mics currently.... moving to a WL184 (super-cardiod) would be still in your price range and would provide the best off-axis noise rejection.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cyclonecj Posted February 17, 2005 Author Share Posted February 17, 2005 We have 6 Shure model #UC1-UA, & 10 Sennheiser #SK100. This is the wireless pack numbers, there are no numbers on the mics. They were bought as a complete package, transmitter & receiver, & mic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minn_male42 Posted February 17, 2005 Share Posted February 17, 2005 ---------------- On 2/17/2005 8:57:28 PM cyclonecj wrote: We have 6 Shure model #UC1-UA, & 10 Sennheiser #SK100. This is the wireless pack numbers, there are no numbers on the mics. They were bought as a complete package, transmitter & receiver, & mic. ---------------- that really doesn't help.... shure sells all of the mics that i listed with the uc systems http://www.shure.com/wireless/uc/default.asp i am not familiar with the sennheiser system Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cyclonecj Posted February 17, 2005 Author Share Posted February 17, 2005 Russ... On the page you posted, the second system down (Lavalier System) is what we have, with the UC4, UC1, & this mic However, we need this mic On that last page, it looks like they are $127.30 for the WH20TQG. I am very curious why we are being quoted $260 everywhere we go! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minn_male42 Posted February 18, 2005 Share Posted February 18, 2005 ---------------- On 2/17/2005 11:49:27 PM cyclonecj wrote: Russ... On the page you posted, the second system down (Lavalier System) is what we have, with the UC4, UC1, & this mic However, we need this mic On that last page, it looks like they are $127.30 for the WH20TQG. I am very curious why we are being quoted $260 everywhere we go! ---------------- something isn't right with that..... all those prices listed are MSRP..... and with the shure line - nobody pays list price.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ben. Posted February 18, 2005 Share Posted February 18, 2005 Why do you have a Midas and crap speakers and mics? It's like feeding filet to a hog. Maybe you could lobby for a half dozen premium mics for the principals, and work around the rest. Sorry if I went on about things already addressed. I've seen "pros" well out of their element that could talk a good game, and wanted to make sure some basic elements weren't overlooked. Don't feel too bad, I had to deal with late 60's gear (this in 89-91) when I was in your situation. Smaller hall, though, I'd guess. Keep plugging. Best regards, Ben Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cyclonecj Posted February 18, 2005 Author Share Posted February 18, 2005 ---------------- On 2/18/2005 12:30:01 AM ben. wrote: Why do you have a Midas and crap speakers and mics? It's like feeding filet to a hog. ---------------- This is a long story, so unless you are really bored, you may want to bypass this post.... The theater here was a disaster from the start. They started to build it when I started working for the district, but I was at another school. When I transferred there, they were still building it. 3.5 years later, it was finished. The first company was fired because our maintenance manager went over there & found 2 people working. The second company was dragging also, & they found out they were not building to the plans. After they were told to do it right, there went to only 3 people working on it. #2 fired. The third company came in & almost had to start over..... nothing was right. But at least it finally got finished. So the drama dept took over & no one wanted to be in charge of the theater (the other schools paid an extra bonus to either the chorus or band teachers) So it was kind of run by the students. Enough said. After a few plays, it became well known that nothing worked, waste of money, etc. So I asked if I could check it out, since I love to play with sound & electrical stuff... (duhhhhh) Here is what I found: The control room was very small & narrow.... & they put the sound cabinets in the middle of the room. If any patched cords are plugged in, you can barely walk past them without snapping them off. There was a donated Mackie 16 channel mixer that had 6 bad channels. The mic ports from the stage were patched into a basic Shure mixer, then back out to the main console snake. Yea... you guessed it....MASSIVE amounts of hummmmmmm. On the main panel there is a main relay switch that is designed to switch the stage mics from one or the other. It was not hooked up. There was equipment added later that was never put on the wiring diagram. Remember, there was 3.5 years between when plans were made & then executed. After searching though the junk pile, we found the plans... they had Community Sound speakers listed. What is on the wall is not what is on the plans. They sound HORRIBLE!!!! They are mounted above the stage opening, facing direct into the catwalk, about 10 feet away. The stage mic plates are installed illegally. They are on the edge of the stage (3 feet higher than the main floor). & you have to open the plate to plug in a mic cord. They did not dig the hole deep enough to plug in the mic & close the plate. So it must be left open during a performance. I should add that it is a very sharp metal plate, standing straight up, right at the edge of the stage. Video patch ports were installed all over the stage area, cables run, & then just coiled up in the main control box in the control room. I found a hidden room under the control room that no one knew about. In there was all of the equipment that was supposed to be included with the theater, including 4 EV 15" monitor speakers still in the sealed boxes. There was no paperwork, no one remembers signing off on the final work or being trained on the equipment. What has happened since I took over: I spoke with the parents club that handles the money for the performing arts. They had been holding a huge amount of money to finish the theater. However, no one was in charge, so no one asked. I had the sound company come back to do repairs. This guy was a moron. It was obvious why nothing worked. He lasted for two trips before I asked permission to fire him. Done. I went over to look at how our other school was built. It was so professional looking, I hired that company to do repairs on our system. After he stopped laughing, he went to work. The stage ports were re-wired to the relay, so now we can use the built-in mixer or the main mixer. That eliminated the hum. He also connected all of the video ports. I replaced the bad Mackie mixer with a new Midas Venice 320 mixer, added a digital effects processor & Denon CD players. I added a overhead projector & automatic screen, all run from the control room. I then had the company give us an estimate on the same speaker system that they put in the other school. It is 3 JBL's, one horizontal over the main stage, FACING DOWN, then the side ones mounted on the sides of the stage, facing the audience, where they should be. (BTW, that theater sounds AWESOME). The estimate was over $14,000, so we turned it down. I then had our manager come over to look at installing La Scalas's on the sides of the stage, but the way it was designed, it was not possible. It then became political, so I dropped it for a while. We use the EV monitors on the catwalk for sound. At this point, everything works very well. We use the wireless mics for many plays & they work great just clipped to shirts, hair, or whatever. But when we do a musical, the singers & actors have to be loud enough be get over the orchestra. That is where we have the problems. As soon as we turn them up that loud, it is all feedback. Wow... I think this is the longest post I have ever made! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted February 18, 2005 Share Posted February 18, 2005 I've been in your same position many times and there's one free thing you might consider...ask the singers & actors to sing louder. I bet good money you could get another 6dB out of those mics if you just got them to sing louder. I do kid productions all the time and I've gotten in the habit of asking them to sing/talk louder...at times, I've had them so loud that I can just completely turn off the mics. That probably won't happen when you're competing with a live orchestra, but it never hurts to ask. What are your options of repositioning the current speakers? Can they be hung from the catwalk? One problem you are probably having is the fact that your lapel mics could be picking up the sound from the orchestra...mics don't have a brain so they are going to pick up everything in it's pickup pattern. Try solo'ing a mic channel while the singer isn't singing and see how much other noise you're picking up. No matter how loud you crank the mic, the difference between the singer's voice and the ambient noise picked up will remain the same. This means that as you increase the volume of the mic, you're also increasing the noise floor which doesn't improve the intelligibility at all. I'm not familiar with your particular setup, but barriers are built all the time to help keep the orchestra from bleeding into mics on stage. You could probably get the shop department at your school to build a baffle for you at the cost of parts. Another test I might suggest is to play a CD through the mains...get it to sound good and at the volume that you would like the voices to be. Then solo mic channels while the singer is quiet and listen for anything interesting. Do you hear the music through the mic? What parts of the music are bleeding through? Does your school have regular handheld mics available? You might try comparing the solo of a regular mic versus that of your wireless mics...even conduct a practice where they're holding their mics. If you don't have problems with the handheld mics, then you know it's your lapels causing the problem. Btw, I have no doubt that headset mics will solve all your problems. Not only does gain before feedback increase, but the clarity of a good headset mic is very amazing...I would say maybe even studio quality. Whenever purchasing audio equipment (especially from dealers), you need to barter with them a lot and make sure they know you are from a non-profit organization. Sometimes they will cut you awesome deals and write it off their taxes (which benefits both of you). Shop around and tell the dealers that you got better deals elsewhere, but that you'd rather establish a relationship with them...eventually you'll come across somebody willing to give you a good deal. If you still can't find a good price, online stores are always a good place to buy. That $14,000 quote from that one company is very much on the steep side, but keep in mind that they'd be charging you for installation and all that. It seems to me that most anything would be an improvement over your current situation so I would really consider doing an install yourself. If you post some rough dimensions of your venue I could give you some recommendations of systems that would work in your situation. I'm sure others on the forum would have some ideas as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colterphoto1 Posted February 18, 2005 Share Posted February 18, 2005 Typical problems for a theatre setup with numerous vendors and multiple mics. Here's my background. I used to do a 'disney-type' production (okay, nobody sue me) at our Union Station Food Court. Had 10 wireless, but they were the fantastic Audio Technica handhelds. SPutnik antenna above stage sent sound to remote receivers in upstairs booth, down snake to my Food Court mixer board and processing rack (which for security reasons had to be unlocked, rolled in, and wired together every day) We used cassette for backing tracks. Eq was manual. On the hour there would be a 20 minute show, during which I'd interview the school choir/band leader who would setup on B stage for performance on the half hour. I'd have 10 minutes to position and mic up a 100 person choir or 10-20 piece HS band ensemble. Talk about trial by fire. Good posts thus far. Here's my take. I like what DrWho said about the performers. No matter what mic they are using, they need to be taught proper technique, especially if they are little kids. Just explain to them that in the old days, people projected their voices in (properly built) auditoriums so as to be heard. Those lapel mics SUCK, they are usually omni and then when you wear em, they're facing straight up anyway. Were invented for one-two person speaking type roles. Doubt if anyone had the guts to bring faders up on 16 at a time. With my production, I had more performers than available mics. Plus we were downtown so occasionally we'd get a channel with interference. I developed a script for our musicals and color code taping system (use BIG tape-1" electrical vinyl- so you can see it from board) with a SCRIPT so I would know which performers should be 'ON'. If you open up all mics and just leave em on, like DrWho said, you're just amplifying JUNK. You may have to train your sound techs to actually work the board and turn on who has to be on. I'd rarely have more than 4 mics open at one time out of 10. This helps considerably with feedback (which you should never have at a public performance) and general stage noise. (I had kids changing costume and joking around backstage- don't want THAT heard up front! Another potential problem is your speakers, I know an expensive, sore topic, but you say you have monitors in the catwalk. THink about this. Monitors, although somewhat tight pattern of dispersion, placed that far away from listeners are going to 1. spray sound everywhere, some of which will strike the walls and blur the sound image 2. reflect back onto the stage causing feedback. This has got to be changed to either moderate dispersion speakers placed side stage or highly directional speakers on catwalk. Third area would be acoustics. The hall is obviously different reflectivity empty than full, so when you practice, it will suck. House eq will change, but if you get it dialed in for live, just turn down a bit for rehersals. Are you using stage monitors? Dump the mics mix from them altoghther. What is the rear of the stage area like? Make sure there is at least one curtain down to soak up sound that gets past the proscenium arch. Hope this helps, sorry for the lengthy post, but it is a multi-faceted problem. Stay with us, there's enough brain power here to fix this. DONT MAKE US COME UP THERE! Michael Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnyholiday Posted February 18, 2005 Share Posted February 18, 2005 i like a little feedback out of a top boast vox AC 30 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnyholiday Posted February 18, 2005 Share Posted February 18, 2005 lol this would happen on tours ,all the time wrong sound company ,for the preformer, the sound company that did kenny rogers before, was tryin to do the diamond daves skyscraper tour, problem rogers set-up was more midrange solution fire sound company ,hire sound company with bottom end, bring in those 18'subs an pound the floor this is a rock concert people. these cats gave you all the ansewers but what is this tapen a mic to someones check about Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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