jpm Posted February 22, 2005 Share Posted February 22, 2005 Briefly - I live in Seattle where we seldom have power outages and very little lightening. My local stereo dealer said DO NOT use power conditioners or surge suppressors with my new Rega gear. This dealer is the high end dealer in town (not Magnolia HiFi or Best Buy) with very expensive, boutique gear, and ought to know what he's talking about (one can only hope). He was adamant about plugging directly into the home outlet. I do use a six outlet rig that plugs directly into the standard home outlet, but it has no protective devices; just 6 outlets. My dealer claims that most new SS gear is already protected and surge suppressors, conditioners and such just muck-up the works and ruin the cleanliness of the components. When the power does go out, usually due to some drunk hitting a pole, I simply unplug everything until the power is back up and running. No big deal, as I home office and am home all the time anyway. If I lived in Florida or some state that gets hit with lightening all the time, I'd definitely get some protection, but for around here, I'm not so convinced. What do you guys think? B.S., or valid points. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dodger Posted February 22, 2005 Share Posted February 22, 2005 Asurge can be caused by a problem within your por power company. We all have preferences. Mine is:P 2 double ganged boxes with a total of 8 individually switched outlets (my on and off) going into an Isobar by Tripp-Lite that has the highest number of joules electrical protection plus it has EMI and RFI filtering your home appliances or radio waves will not dirty the electrical signal. It also has a $40,000 guarantee should anything be damaged, then that is plugged into a single Rat Shack outlet with Surge, EMI, RFI filtering. That has a $5,000 guarantee. I also switch my components on and off with my switched outlets. If you have brown-outs you may need a voltage stabilizer. dodger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Posted February 22, 2005 Share Posted February 22, 2005 To simply ground an audio system, you should use a three-prong surge protector, with electromagnetic interference (EMI) and radio frequency (RF) filtering, then plug all of the front-end components into it, without any cheater plugs. I would look for the most Joules for the least money that will give you the most economical power line surge protection, with electromagnetic interference (EMI) and radio frequency (RF) filtering. These are sometimes free, after rebate, I would certainly use this on my HT and PC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrMcGoo Posted February 22, 2005 Share Posted February 22, 2005 Many amp manufacturers recommend that you do NOT use surge supressors. They restrict the current available to the amp and may cause damage instead of preventing it. I use a Panamax 4400 that is designed for 20 amp circuits that run amplifiers which does not restrict current. It is the only Panamax that does not use MOVs that is below their power regenerators. Its purpose is to turn the power off if there is a sustained over voltage situation. I use regular surge supressors for other gear. My whole house is on a surge supressor under the power meter. Many small spikes shorten the life of electonic gear. The only equipment that I have lost was a hard drive video recorder. The HD died. Not a bad record in 20 years of home theater. Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfogg Posted February 22, 2005 Share Posted February 22, 2005 I use a couple of these for my system. http://www.brickwall.com/ Shawn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Posted February 22, 2005 Share Posted February 22, 2005 Since I might someday need this information myself, I ran down two-dozen surge protectors on Froogle and compared their cost per joule (without counting the numbers of outlets, length of cord, etc.). Most protectors had EMI/RFI filtering. The least expensive were models like the Fellowes 9908, with 715 Joules of protection for $3.99 online, or $0.006 per Joule. See also Belkin MasterCube, Cyberpower 650, Fellowes 99078, Tripplite 1000J 25K-Ins (with 1000 Joules and $25K of insurance), Tripplite TLP606 and Belkin STS060-TEL. The rule of thumb for PCs is 1,000 Joules of protection (dont know why). In that category, Cyberpower 650 with 1250 Joules at $7.81, the Fellowes 99078, with 2000 Joules at $13.95 and the Tripplite 1000J 25K-Ins at $7.03, offer the best values. By the way, Power Blocker 2 Surge Protect for $27.95 (model N200357) says it has unlimited Joule protection Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpm Posted February 22, 2005 Author Share Posted February 22, 2005 I emailed Brickwall about their product and asked for their opinion on suppressors. Here's their answer, and I quote: "I've never heard of a surge protector "damaging" an amp or anything else except by failing to work when a surge occurs. The problem with what the salesman described is a) Most systems need more than just 2 outlets and likely more than 4. Which brings up the logistical issue of how many outlets on has in a room. While the amp debate rages on whether you should plug them directly into the wall(more on this below) or use a surge protector, CD, DVD, Receivers, D/A converters etc are about as sensitive as electronics come to power anomalies. While an amps natural existence as a giant power supply provides it with very modest protection, front end equipment have no such protection. Now the amp debate is basically because amp makers are loath to let anything affect the performance of their products even if its an improvement. Now some protectors make amps sound terrible so I don't blame them. But the zero tolerance policy is short sighted because an amp tends to be a major hunk of the cost of a system. If its damaged, it really hurts. Provided your are happy with the resultant sound I think using a surge protector is a good idea. The real scoop is surge protection needs and necessity depend on your location and importance of your system(which can be a reflection of cost and/or time you spent on it). If you live in an area that gets thunderstorms, it would be foolish to ignore that risks. But even in areas where such storms are a rarity(such as here in SoCal) surges still occur. Sometimes peace of mind is worth a couple of extra bucks. I hope this has been of assistance and please feel free to contact us if you should have any further questions. Yours, Ryan Cox Price Wheeler Corp. 800-528-0313" I then called back my local dealer and he said I misunderstood what he said. He said to always plug the AMP directly into a house outlet. All other pieces of gear, including pre-amp, can be run through a surge suppressor no problem. He's not hot on line conditioners though unless you've got real problems; and in that case you might want to think about hiring a licensed electrician to straighten things out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted February 22, 2005 Share Posted February 22, 2005 ---------------- On 2/22/2005 1:34:51 PM MrMcGoo wrote: Many amp manufacturers recommend that you do NOT use surge supressors. They restrict the current available to the amp and may cause damage instead of preventing it. I use a Panamax 4400 that is designed for 20 amp circuits that run amplifiers which does not restrict current. It is the only Panamax that does not use MOVs that is below their power regenerators. Its purpose is to turn the power off if there is a sustained over voltage situation. I use regular surge supressors for other gear. My whole house is on a surge supressor under the power meter. Many small spikes shorten the life of electonic gear. The only equipment that I have lost was a hard drive video recorder. The HD died. Not a bad record in 20 years of home theater. Bill ---------------- i ahve never head that before, but it is interesting, i'd like to know if that is myth or truth Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minn_male42 Posted February 22, 2005 Share Posted February 22, 2005 i have copied some of my responses from earlier threads on this forum that might be helpful: For the "best protection possible" you need to get a series mode surge protector. For many years this type of unit was only available from Surge-X, Brickwall, or Zerosurge. Now the technology has been licensed also to Adcom and Furman. Furman is the company that I would recommend right now (even though I personally have a Surge-X unit in my rack). The Furman units are offered in more different configurations and at better price points than the other series mode companies. Do some technical reading on the following websites and you will never buy another MOV based surge protector again! http://www.surgex.com www.brickwall.com http://www.furmansound.com http://www.zerosurge.com/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Just so we are clear here in our definitions: Surge Protector: pretty self explanatory - just protects the plugged in equipment from power line surges. Your cheap models use MOV's (metal oxide varistors) which DO wear out over time and cost less than 25 cents each. Much better models use series mode mode protection. (links provided above) There are also a few other technologies out there - silicon avalanche diodes is one technology that is available. Very few of the silicon avalanche models are available for home use. Many surge protectors do offer RF and EMI filtering as part of the package. Line Conditioner: There units regulate the voltage - keeping it at 117 volts (or 120 volts) constantly. The Tripplite LCR-2400 mentioned in this thread is a line conditioner. It takes any voltage from 87 volts to 141 volts and converts it to a stable 117 volts. These units usually include MOV surge protection. Some newer models available from Furman Sound provide voltage regulation AND use series mode surge protection. Power Conditioner: Now we get into the area of many "audiophile" discussions. People trying to "CLEAN UP" their power by removing noise and artifacts from the power coming into their equipment. Monster Power is a big promoter of the "dirty power" concept. Some manfacturers offer units into the many thousands of dollars. Also included in this category are "balanced power" and "ac regenerators". Some units also offer the power regulation of the line conditioners above. Surge protection again is included in nearly all of these units - MOV based. When considering buying anything above a surge protector, ALWAYS purchase from a location that has a good return policy. If you don't hear or see any improvements - take it back. Additionally - many of the units in all categories DO offer many nice convenience features like remote power on/off, sequential powering of outlets, 12 volt triggers for connected equipment, etc. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- series mode surge protectors will never "die" from a surge.... here are the companies that produce them currently.... http://www.surgex.com http://www.brickwall.com http://www.zerosurge.com and the two newer models from adcom http://www.adcom.com/surgesupressors.htm and furman sound recently came out with their series II models which are the lowest cost series mode protectors currently available.... http://www.furmansound.com/pro/pwr_cond_seq/cond/Series%202.htm cheers! p.s...... all MOV based protectors will eventually wear out (die) from surges....small ones all add up or one big one.... they will all die.... and "joule" ratings are lifetime heat absorption ratings....once that lifetime rating is reached, your "surge protector" is nothing more than a fancy outlet strip..... monster, panamax, etc..... (very expensive power strips).... ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The Types of Surge Suppressors All surge protectors can be put into two main categories based on the way they operate: shunt mode and series mode. The accompanying diagrams show one example of each type: an MOV (Metal-Oxide Varistor) based surge protector as an example of shunt mode, and SurgeX as an example of series mode. Shunt Mode Protection The most common type of surge protector at this time is shunt mode. Most of these rely on MOVs connected in such a way as to shunt surge energy to ground. An MOV is a semiconductor device which "turns on" when the voltage across it exceeds a certain value. MOVs are about the size of a quarter, and cost about a quarter (in high volume). When a surge appears at the terminals of an MOV, its resistance drops dramatically as the voltage across it exceeds its threshold, and it conducts the surge current, diverting the surge to the neutral wire or the ground wire. Shunt mode protection is therefore diversion technology - the surge is diverted from the hot wire to the neutral wire or the ground wire. MOV-based surge protectors have been in use since the 1970's but have limitations that must be understood if they are to be used reliably. Of prime concern is the fact that MOVs have a lifetime "joule" rating. The joule is an engineering term for energy (energy can be measured in joules). The joule rating for an MOV means that when a particular MOV has received the specified amount of energy, it no longer works! This could be the result of one or two large surges or several small surges. Therefore, for MOVs to be used reliably, a strict replacement schedule is necessary. It is like not having a gas gauge in your car - you never know when you are going to run out of gas so you have to keep putting more gas in your car! Lack of replacement can have very serious results - MOVs have been known to cause fires. Shunt mode protection has another aspect to it that should be considered when purchasing a surge protection device. That is, that the surges are not handled or contained in any way, they are simply diverted to the neutral wire or the ground wire. If shunt mode protection is working properly, it can, subject to limitations of its let-through voltage, protect a single piece of equipment that does not contain a switching power supply (see section 5. switching power supplies) or a bank of equipment which is all powered from the same 110v outlet. However, because shunt mode diverts surges to ground, it can cause damage to interconnected equipment that is plugged into a different 110V outlet. The reason for this is that the safety ground that is used as the ground reference in audio/video systems is the same ground onto which surges are dumped by shunt mode protection! The surges then travel along the interconnecting cables! All wires including building wiring and interconnect wiring have impedance, which will generate a substantial voltage when the thousands of amps of surge current are suddenly dumped onto such wiring. This is nothing more than Ohms Law. One of the worst case examples of this problem is that of interconnected computers, because computers are often interconnected by long datacomm cables, and plugged into 1l0V outlets at very different parts of a building. The important points for shunt mode protectors are: Cheap and simple to produce Limited lifetime Contaminate ground wire Series Mode Protection Series mode protection was originally developed in the mid 1980's to meet the more demanding requirements of industry. As its name suggests, series mode protection operates in series with the hot wire and works by blocking the surge voltage rather than by diverting the surge current (which could be thousands of amps) to ground. This has the dual advantages that the surge protector does not have to handle thousands of amps of surge current and, most importantly, ground is not contaminated. So, how does series mode protection actually work? The accompanying diagram shows how SurgeX surge protection works. The first line of defense in the SurgeX system (and key to SurgeX protection) is the massive surge reactor which is in series with the hot wire. (It is the weight of the surge reactor that is the reason SurgeX products weigh much more than other surge protectors.) The surge reactor filters out small transients, slows larger surges (surges and transients are very fast), and limits the surge current. All current which passes to equipment connected to a SurgeX unit passes through this filter. The second part of the SurgeX system is an electronic circuit which tracks, clamps and contains the surge energy after it has been slowed by the surge reactor. This energy is then released slowly to the neutral wire, not the ground wire. In this way, the safety ground is never contaminated, and interconnected equipment is not put at risk when a surge comes in on the power lines feeding the equipment. SurgeX has no sacrificial components (such as MOVs) and can withstand thousands of the largest surges normally found on 110v wiring (6000V, 3000A). The SurgeX system also has superior clamping because it tracks the power wave and instantly clamps transients typically to within only 2 volts of the ac power wave! No MOV-based product can claim such excellent clamping. An oscilloscope connected to the output of a SurgeX product barely shows any measurable voltage rise when a surge is injected into the unit, whereas MOV-based products have a very measurable voltage rise. SurgeX products are not available as whole-house protectors because it is important to protect equipment from transients produced within a building as well as surges entering from outside. The best protection is provided by installing a surge protector for each piece (or bank) of equipment rather than installing a whole-house protector. Of course, the all-important question is: does series mode protection really work, and how well does it work? Series mode protection has been used in the most demanding industrial and commercial environments with exemplary performance. It has protected equipment when there have been direct lightning hits on buildings, and has also protected equipment from data errors caused by transients produced inside factories. Furthermore, all SurgeX products meet the highest level of testing that is available from UL - the buyer's absolute guarantee of performance. This will be discussed in the next section. The important points for series mode protection are: Unlimited lifetime No sacrificial components Unsurpassed voltage clamping Safety or reference ground is not contaminated Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunnysal Posted February 22, 2005 Share Posted February 22, 2005 my only bones to pick are: 1. that while non-MOV-based surge protector suppliers say MOVs have a useful life and that small and large surges contribute over time to failure I have seen no specific evidence to support that claim, other than these claims by non-MOV producers. I have owned MOV-based units for decades and have yet to see one fail except in direct response to a major surge. I have one currently working that has been active for 14 years in a very hostile environment, I do not expect it to fail until I have a major surge in that location. 2. current limiting is usually considered a factor in power filtration units, simple surge protection circuitry should not cause ANY limitation (unless the unit is woefully underspec´d) So I say get a surge protector a.s.a.p. into your system, make sure it is a well made, name-brand unit and is spec´d for the kind of load you expect to give it, leaving units unprotected during a storm benefits no one but your high end dealer when you need the units repaired or replaced...regards, tony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minn_male42 Posted February 22, 2005 Share Posted February 22, 2005 an additional fact to consider.... (since you wanted data from an MOV manufacturer) from the littlefuse website (MOV manufacturer) http://www.littelfuse.com/data/en/Data_Sheets/MA.pdf scroll down to page three of the pdf: " Because varistors can only dissipate a relatively small amount of average power they are, therefore, not suitable for repetitive applications that involve substantial amounts of average power dissipation." in other words, if you get two surges very close to each other, the protection of MOV's will be severely reduced Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DRBILL Posted February 22, 2005 Share Posted February 22, 2005 It sounds to me like you got advice from a person who makes a good living selling high-end electronics. Would I guess correctly that they also have a high-end repair shop at your complete disposal? Hmm. You never know. DR BILL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrMcGoo Posted February 23, 2005 Share Posted February 23, 2005 I thought that it was obvious that I do not buy the amp manufacturer recommendation that you plug your amp directly into the wall. Hence my comment that I use surge protection on everything (whole house on surge supressor). My point was to use a surge protector that works for amps (can carry the load.) Russ has listed several brands that have an excellent reputation for use with pro amps. I listed a consumer brand and model number. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnyholiday Posted February 23, 2005 Share Posted February 23, 2005 go buy a good one ,an check out some chicks an when some lighning wacks, a block way pat yourself on the shoulder Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpm Posted February 23, 2005 Author Share Posted February 23, 2005 I think my dilemma is over. I contacted my public utility company. Turns out they will install a surge suppressor at the meter that protects my whole house. They guarantee the results. My cost is a one-time $45 under the energy conservation program. Everything protected in one fell swoop. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrMcGoo Posted February 23, 2005 Share Posted February 23, 2005 jpm, I have a similar setup. The clamping voltage is a bit on the high side at over 500 volts before clamping starts. My recommendation is to get the specifications that go with the new surge protector. If the voltage is high like mine, consider a second supressor. Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minn_male42 Posted February 23, 2005 Share Posted February 23, 2005 ---------------- On 2/23/2005 9:57:58 PM MrMcGoo wrote: jpm, I have a similar setup. The clamping voltage is a bit on the high side at over 500 volts before clamping starts. My recommendation is to get the specifications that go with the new surge protector. If the voltage is high like mine, consider a second supressor. Bill ---------------- agreed..... 500 volts can do some real damage...esp in source components that don't have huge transformers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpm Posted February 23, 2005 Author Share Posted February 23, 2005 Well hell, there ya go. I'll check with them tomorrow and get the specs. If it's that high it may make no sense to have it installed. Actually I was wrong on the price too. It's $45 to install and then 15 cents a day ($4.50 month) to run. 10 year warranty means $540 for 10 years. Starting to sound a little steep. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrMcGoo Posted February 23, 2005 Share Posted February 23, 2005 I beleive in defense in depth. The defense is inexpensive. Damaged gear can be very expensive. The whole house surge protector protects high voltage gear like my central AC that runs on 220-230v. Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WMcD Posted February 23, 2005 Share Posted February 23, 2005 It looks like the question is whether any sort of surge surpression system, regulators, UPS, etc can cause a problem. I don't see how. I also don't see how hospital grade a.c. connectors and the like can improve anything. First: All of us use the the typical surge protector strip on all sorts of equipment. Some is fairly sophisticated. T.V., computer, radios of all sorts. These do as much signal processing as the hi-fi gear. No one reports problems in those applications. Of course the high end guy might say these units are compromised too. But there is no such evidence: We run microprocessors at a Ghz and there is no problem. The typical video player is doing a lot of work and putting out a signal with at least a 1.0 mHz bandwidth. Are there serious reports that video output is compromise? No. Sound is messed up, but these examples, in our experience, are not. How does that happen? Also I don't see how any purported "bad stuff" (be it a signal or device) will influence the output side of the power supply of our gear. In the most elementry (like a classic tube amp) you've got a big cap which is pretty much going to kill anything but D.C. The more sophisticated units have much more complicate power supplies. These probably work just as well an keeps as good an eye on the purity of output voltage. That is what I think. Gil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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