nicholtl Posted March 3, 2005 Share Posted March 3, 2005 ---------------- On 3/3/2005 12:43:49 PM dbflash wrote: Buy whatever you can afford. Life is too short. ---------------- I think this is the most honest statement made in this thread thus far. I whole-heartidly agree. Life's too short to be bickering about this and that, trying to turn people onto your side of the fence. So I'll echo you, dbflash. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Adams Posted March 3, 2005 Share Posted March 3, 2005 First of all, I have no where near the electrical knowledge some of you have (to be honest, I absolutely hated every electrical course I had to take for my Mechanical Engineering major. Well...motor controller stuff and robotics were cool...anyhow). So please bear with me. What I don't understand is that a lot of the specs and numbers and such that are thrown around here are for an amp operating at FULL POWER. So how in the dickens could there be enough of a difference that one could hear a change in sound when the amp is only delivering a real world 2 watts (or less) to our Klipsch's? I just can't believe that a power cord can accomplish this. The original assertion by DM was that after the change in power cords, his system was "LOUDER". He didn't say clarity or imaging, he said "LOUDER". My first thought was, "OMG! A power cord resulted in an output change of 3db. Holy smokes! How in the world? I gotta read on!" I guess it's possible folks can hear things others can't, however I don't think one can just dismiss science and fall back on the position of "perception is reality". I was always taught that yes, your perception might be your reality, but that doesn't make it the truth. Which brings me to my only other comment. There is but only one way to solve this - a double blind listening test with a twist. The loser must come on here and admit to the world they were wrong, promise to go forth and set the world straight, and buy the rest of us a beer for having to endure this thread! Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-MAN Posted March 3, 2005 Share Posted March 3, 2005 Tom, it IS perceptively louder, regardless. I stated before what I think allows it to happen. The bottom line is this: the fancy AQ AC12 cable compared to the stock McIntosh EIC cable resulted in louder bass, and better definition of overall clarity. Dynamic changes of volume are noticably louder, respectively. Didn't do anything but power down, swap cables, power up. In regards to the Meridian 2400 cd player, the AC12 cable compared to the stock .99 cent EIC cable which came with the gear is better defined, i.e., definitively better sense of black space, more clarity, increased sparkle, and better overall definition of the soundstage. It costs 100 times more than the .99 cent cable. Is it 100 times better? No. But it is definitively "better". Not quite a night-and-day thing, but frankly one would have to be deaf to not notice. But like with Altec midrange horns favored by a few here vs. Klipsch, the beholding is in the hearing. They are both horns, but you can't determine the actual differences until they are compared side-by-side BY EAR, the specs won't give it to you, they are relatively close, and are not particularity condusive to imagining the expected results. Do I think that cabling results in more apparent changes than a midrange driver or horn change? No. That tends to change the room modes, and the dispersion pattern. Rather it's a subtle change more akin to using boutique caps in a crossover. But it all adds up. DM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minn_male42 Posted March 3, 2005 Share Posted March 3, 2005 Placebo Effects Prove the Value of Suggestion by Charles E. Henderson, Ph.D. placebo 1. A substance with no medicinal properties which causes a patient to improve because of his belief in its efficacy. 2. (Experimental) A substance administered to a control group in an experiment in which the experimental group receives a drug in order to eliminate the effect of the act of administering the drug. Wolman, Dictionary of Behavioral Science Could a little bit of sugar keep you from catching colds, cure a skin disease, or even make a cancer disappear? Make you drunk? All of these (and much, much more) have been reported as "placebo" effects in the scientific literature. In fact, there is hardly any human characteristic or problem that has not been shown to be affected by placebos in one research or other. A placebo, as used in research, is an inactive substance or procedure used as a control in an experiment. A placebo effect occurs when the placebo, which cannot on its own merit have any affect, does in fact have the same or similar affect as the experimental substance or procedure. For example, consider the body of research that has been conducted on human response times as affected by alcohol. Subjects are given measured doses of alcohol at certain time intervals and their responses are tested following each "drink." But to make sure nothing else is causing any of the changes that may occur, it is necessary to have a "control" group. This is a group of subjects for whom everything is identical except one thing: in this case, they get no alcohol. They are treated the same way and they are given a beverage which they believe to be alcohol under the same conditions and with the same schedule. In other words you take a group of subjects and do the same thing for all of them, except half of the group (unbeknown to anyone except the researchers) get a non-alcoholic beverage. As you might expect, those subjects who receive alcohol begin, at some point, to show a change in their responses. And of course given enough of the alcoholic beverage many of them get plastered. What you might find surprising, though, if you are not familiar with this research, is that some of the placebo-drinking subjectsthose receiving shots of a liquid prepared to taste and kick like alcohol, but which in fact is basically just wateracted tipsy and sometimes even drunk. These subjects for whom the suggestion of drinking alcohol produced inebriated-like behavior were exhibiting a placebo effect. Placebo effects are of particular interest to us here becausethey are another phenomenon that illustrates the strength of suggestion. These placebo effects frequently demonstrate a potency of suggestion which we normally think of as residing only in drugs. The placebo effect has been reported in just about every research situation in which placebos were used, and in many circumstances where the use of placebos was not intended but the effect was the same anyway............. http://www.bcx.net/hypnosis/placebo.htm -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Audio Cable "Break In" Science or Psychological? Monday, August 30 2004 Audio Cable "Break In" Science or Psychological? Cable Vendor Claim "'Breaking in' a cable has everything to do with the insulation - not the wire itself. The insulation (or dielectric) will absorb energy from the conductor when a current is flowing (i.e. when music is playing). This energy-absorption causes the dielectric's molecules to re-arrange themselves from a random order into a uniform order. When the molecules have been rearranged, the dielectric will absorb less energy & consequently cause less distortion." Audioquest Audioholics Response: Thus their conclusion is the dielectric, not the wire causes distortion! Claims regarding insulation molecules "aligning" with a signal, skin effect, strand jumping, etc, are anecdotal at best. Let's not forget that an audio signal is AC, and effectively random from a physical perspective. Nothing can align to a random signal by being anything other than random - exactly the state they claim is "cured" by injecting a signal. "Break In" is not a proven audible or measurable phenomenon. The perception of changes in sound quality with time is likely attributable to the classical placebo effect, i.e., a listener anticipating a possible audible difference is predisposed to hear one whether or not it exists. Note that Audioquest isn't the only exotic cable vendor that claims cables "Break In". This is actually quite a popular myth touted by many other exotic cable vendors and cable forum cult hobbyists alike. Audioholics Forum Feedback Response Fellow Audioholics.com forum members recently engaged in a discussion about the cable "break in" myth that I felt was invaluable and worth turning into an article. Rather than diving into the technical aspects of the cable "break in" myth, our forum members discussed the physiological ones and how exotic cable vendors may be playing on this scenario to hook unwary consumers into believing something which they cannot prove through measurements, analytical analysis or controlled Double Blind Listening Tests (DBT's). Incidentally, we allow DBT discussions in any of our forums... "So is cable break in just a ploy for getting people to keep the cables beyond the return period, or perhaps long enough that their desire to do anything about the lack of any improvement is gone?" - Paul F "I think there's more to it than that. There is a neural adjustment effect that occurs when a stimulus we are accustomed to changes, known as 'habituation'. When you change to new cables, there may appear to be an audible difference. If this seems to be for the better, well and good - you'll keep the cables. If the cables seem marginally worse than the old ones, the 'break in improvement' claim will encourage you to persevere with them for a while. Over this time your auditory system will habituate to the new sound balance, resulting in a perceived improvement. If you then swap back to the old cables for a 'fair' comparison, they will probably sound worse, as you are now adjusted to the new ones. The second effect that comes into play is our suggestibility. Some people are more suggestible than others, but most of us are surprisingly open to persuasion. Expensive audio cables are an almost ideal example: we are persuaded to get them because they will improve the sound, and will get better over time, they cost a lot of money so they ought to be 'special', we've gone to some to get them because we want a change for the better, we'd hate our choice to be a failure, it would be a hassle to return them and start again, and most importantly, the judgment is purely subjective and very susceptible to emotional influence. Under these conditions, the chances are we'll convince ourselves the new cables sound better, even if on someone else's identical system they might sound slightly worse - after all, 'worse' is subjective, and they have to break in, right? In reality, there probably won't be a significant audible difference, but our expectations and suggestibility will manufacture one. There are probably quite a few old-hands who are resistant to these effects, you know, the cynics and pessimists but it doesn't matter to the snake-oil salesmen, there are enough suggestible people seeking auditory nirvana for them to prosper, get rich, afford swanky web sites, buy advertising space in all the glossy magazines, and still give a decent mark-up to the retail outlets." - DLorde Interestingly, the New Scientists recently commented on the London Heathrow Hi Fi Show, saying that among the cables selling for up to £30,000 for 6 metres, they found Quad demonstrating their latest speakers to great enthusiasm. The orange cable to the speakers looked oddly familiar. When asked about it, Tony Faulkner, the recording engineer demonstrating them (who'd used the speakers as monitors while recording Saint-Saen's complete works for piano & orchestra, Gramophone's Record of the Year), said of the cables: "Yes, they would look familiar if you have a garden. Before the show opened we went over the road to the DIY superstore and bought one of those £20 extension leads that Black & Decker sells for electric hedge-cutters. They are made from good, thick copper wire, look nice and sound good to me. The show's been running for three days and no one in the audience has noticed..." - New Scientist Magazine http://www.audioholics.com/techtips/audioprinciples/interconnects/speakercablebreak-in.php Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SHUFF Posted March 3, 2005 Share Posted March 3, 2005 ---------------- On 3/3/2005 6:04:23 PM D-MAN wrote: Tom, it IS perceptively louder, regardless. I stated before what I think allows it to happen. The bottom line is this: the fancy AQ AC12 cable compared to the stock McIntosh EIC cable resulted in louder bass, and better definition of overall clarity. Dynamic changes of volume are noticably louder, respectively. Didn't do anything but power down, swap cables, power up. In regards to the Meridian 2400 cd player, the AC12 cable compared to the stock .99 cent EIC cable which came with the gear is better defined, i.e., definitively better sense of black space, more clarity, increased sparkle, and better overall definition of the soundstage. It costs 100 times more than the .99 cent cable. Is it 100 times better? No. But it is definitively "better". Not quite a night-and-day thing, but frankly one would have to be deaf to not notice. But like with Altec midrange horns favored by a few here vs. Klipsch, the beholding is in the hearing. They are both horns, but you can't determine the actual differences until they are compared side-by-side BY EAR, the specs won't give it to you, they are relatively close, and are not particularity condusive to imagining the expected results. Do I think that cabling results in more apparent changes than a midrange driver or horn change? No. That tends to change the room modes, and the dispersion pattern. Rather it's a subtle change more akin to using boutique caps in a crossover. But it all adds up. DM ---------------- I KNOW your story is truth, D-Man. I've lived it myself. My wife and kids lived it too, and they could give a care about AC cables. They're in it for the MUSIC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minn_male42 Posted March 3, 2005 Share Posted March 3, 2005 has any of the posters here who have experienced what they consider an increase in loudness bothered to use an SPL meter to verify this belief? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yaffstone Posted March 3, 2005 Share Posted March 3, 2005 They couldn't. A well known quantum mechnaical phenomina is that the act of measuring a system forces it into a specific energy state. This paradoxically raises the uncertainty in other dimensions. This is the Heisenberg uncertainty principal. In the case of power cords, the act of measuring the null set would force the user to question the state of the batteries in the SPL meter. A conclusion could never be reached and therefore the observer would be forced to rely on perception all over again. This would be further proof that time reversal symetry does indeed exist in the universe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minn_male42 Posted March 3, 2005 Share Posted March 3, 2005 ---------------- On 3/3/2005 7:13:20 PM yaffstone wrote: They couldn't. A well known quantum mechnaical phenomina is that the act of measuring a system forces it into a specific energy state. This paradoxically raises the uncertainty in other dimensions. This is the Heisenberg uncertainty principal. In the case of power cords, the act of measuring the null set would force the user to question the state of the batteries in the SPL meter. A conclusion could never be reached and therefore the observer would be forced to rely on perception all over again. This would be further proof that time reversal symetry does indeed exist in the universe. ---------------- awwww... i was waiting for D-man to post that reason!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T2K Posted March 3, 2005 Share Posted March 3, 2005 I'll admit that I only read a couple of the responses here before posting, but whatever Russ said I vehemently disagree with. Keith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SHUFF Posted March 3, 2005 Share Posted March 3, 2005 ...now I think I may understand the source of all this last word lecturing, dead horse beating megalomania... Russ, do you even own any gear that doesn't have a captive cord? If not, I will be glad to loan you some, or if you prefer I will be more than willing to LOAN you some quality AC cords that you and your buds can use to conduct all the scientific tests you wish, if your sacred Carvers allow. You could also perform your "double blind" A/Bs to your hearts content. But please don't do any testing with your B&O turntable, even a good AC cord can't help that sound any better. No turntable sounds better that a B&O, even after it's broken in. PM me if you're interested in my offer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minn_male42 Posted March 3, 2005 Share Posted March 3, 2005 ---------------- On 3/3/2005 8:05:53 PM SHUFF wrote: ...now I think I may understand the source of all this last word lecturing, dead horse beating megalomania... Russ, do you even own any gear that doesn't have a captive cord? If not, I will be glad to loan you some, or if you prefer I will be more than willing to LOAN you some quality AC cords that you and your buds can use to conduct all the scientific tests you wish, if your sacred Carvers allow. You could also perform your "double blind" A/Bs to your hearts content. But please don't do any testing with your B&O turntable, even a good AC cord can't help that sound any better. No turntable sounds better that a B&O, even after it's broken in. PM me if you're interested in my offer. ---------------- i was wondering when someone might start criticizing my equipment..... it's really sad that some people really can't discuss a topic without attacking people or even attacking their equipment.... what is your problem???? do you have anything to contribute to this discussion or do you just post here to attack people that you disagree with???? i asked you earlier for any possible scientific reason why ANYONE might believe in the claims of the aftermarket cable companies...... you passed on that request..... you must not have anything to add to this discussion other than pure perception..... (see the above post on the "placebo effect")..... the placebo effect is a PROVEN scientific concept.... good luck with the whole "attack the messenger and his equipment when you can't argue rationally" attitude..... i'm sure it will serve you well in your interpersonal relationships..... btw - why don't you enlighten us all by filling in your equipment list so we all may learn what really good equipment is.... since mine is obviously sooooooooo inferior Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SHUFF Posted March 3, 2005 Share Posted March 3, 2005 ...well at least you're honest about one thing, all this is is an argument, a stupid one at that. So is that a "yes" or "no" on my offer to loan you some goodies? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minn_male42 Posted March 3, 2005 Share Posted March 3, 2005 ---------------- On 3/3/2005 8:36:29 PM SHUFF wrote: ...well at least you're honest about one thing, all this is is an argument, a stupid one at that. So is that a "yes" or "no" on my offer to loan you some goodies? ---------------- can you read??? have you even bothered to read the entire thread??? i have auditioned four different after market power cords in my system as well as measuring their properties..... it's all been posted earlier in this thread..... but you have been too busy attacking people to read the entire thread.... here's a hint newbie...... it's easier to sound like you know what you are talking about if you actually read all the posts in a thread... btw - we still don't know what kind of equipment do you own that is soooooo much better than my equipment??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SHUFF Posted March 3, 2005 Share Posted March 3, 2005 ...for the tests to be valid and meaningful you must have the "right" cords, I can loan you the "right" type, the ones that'll give you the loudness boost. Not all the AC cables deliver as promised. I'll extend my offer once more, try it you'll like it. And by the way, I could care less about what equipment you own, much less "attack" it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rockbobmel Posted March 3, 2005 Share Posted March 3, 2005 I almost got caught up in the High End cord/cables thing. Well, I did get a set of speaker cables by AudioQuest that I later found out that is gave an immediate sound "Change", but better? I doubt it. So when the power cord was tossed at me, I said Naaaaa. I went to a used computer store and got some really beefy 14GA equipment cords for $1. ea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minn_male42 Posted March 3, 2005 Share Posted March 3, 2005 ---------------- On 3/3/2005 8:55:59 PM SHUFF wrote: ...for the tests to be valid and meaningful you must have the "right" cords, I can loan you the "right" type, the ones that'll give you the loudness boost. Not all the AC cables deliver as promised. I'll extend my offer once more, try it you'll like it. And by the way, I could care less about what equipment you own, much less "attack" it. ---------------- what are the "right" cords? more importantly - WHY are they "right" cords? what about their composition/construction make them the "right" cords??? give us some brand names and models so we can do some research online and learn more about what makes a cable the "right" cable....(in your opinion) 3rd request - what equipment do you own?? i could ask you the same question you asked me....."do you even own any equipment that doesn't have a captive cord?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nicholtl Posted March 4, 2005 Share Posted March 4, 2005 Geez louis guys. Why don't we all just drop our pants already, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SHUFF Posted March 4, 2005 Share Posted March 4, 2005 ---------------- On 3/4/2005 1:07:57 AM nicholtl wrote: Geez louis guys. Why don't we all just drop our pants already, ---------------- ...now THAT sounds exiting! , and I could show you my superior cable to boot! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrMcGoo Posted March 4, 2005 Share Posted March 4, 2005 I have two after-market power cords. The power cord on my Pioneer receiver did not fit securely into the IEC socket, so I bought a shielded replacement. The replacement cord improved the sound due to a tighter fit (better contact?), so I bought another. The second cord had no effect on any of my other gear that I could hear. Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minn_male42 Posted March 4, 2005 Share Posted March 4, 2005 ah yes.... our friend shuff here makes a bold statement about having the "right" cable that will provide more loudness and then he refuses to tell us what that cable is.... share with us your "great discovery".... a cable that can really improve the sound of your components!! we're waiting..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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