D-MAN Posted March 1, 2005 Share Posted March 1, 2005 Minn_male, YOU are missing out. The cables ain't pretty, but I DO enjoy them. They are far better performers than the stock .99 cent POS wires that the gear came with. DM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minn_male42 Posted March 1, 2005 Share Posted March 1, 2005 ---------------- On 3/1/2005 12:40:20 PM D-MAN wrote: Minn_male, YOU are missing out. The cables ain't pretty, but I DO enjoy them. They are far better performers than the stock .99 cent POS wires that the gear came with. DM ---------------- i can see that all the electrical explanations that i posted above went right over your head.... i guess science is not one of your strong suits... if you had comprehended ANYTHING that i posted you would realize that it is IMPOSSIBLE for your aftermarket power cables to improve the sound.... whatever..... maybe i should ask what color is the sky in "your world".. LOL additionally.... you are missing the fact that Mcintosh would never sell any piece of equipment with any power cable that could not meet the power requirements demanded by the unit.... (which are much lower than you thought!!!) good luck with your version of reality!!! and if you really believe that your cables improve your sound - GOOD FOR YOU! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-MAN Posted March 1, 2005 Share Posted March 1, 2005 No, it didn't. You are being pedantic. DM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minn_male42 Posted March 1, 2005 Share Posted March 1, 2005 ---------------- On 3/1/2005 12:59:27 PM D-MAN wrote: No, it didn't. You are being pedantic. DM ---------------- LOL too bad you can't discuss power cables in an intelligent manner... btw - we never did hear what model of audio quest cables that you bought that were "silver coated"... let me know the model so i can order one for myself to see if i can hear any improvement in my system Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dodger Posted March 1, 2005 Share Posted March 1, 2005 I don't know what D-Man has, but I was offered the opportunity to audition: AudioQuest Viper and als the Coral silver coated Interconnects. Also the silver coated Killamanjaro 10 Silver Strand = 12 ga. Hyperlitz speaker cables. For a dealer contact Audioquest or they can be ordered from Avalon Audio, granted it's NZ, but I can't tell my friends where to live. dodger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-MAN Posted March 1, 2005 Share Posted March 1, 2005 let's discuss some AC cabling issues. Fact #1: AC cabling is rated by a maximum wattage rating. This is due to the resistance of the cable to the flow of current, resulting in heat, and the ability of the cable to dissapate it. When too hot, it melts. Same effect as a fusable link, which is a wire which may have special additives, metalurgy and other considerations applied to it so that it melts at a chosen wattage/current rating. This rating is applied per foot of cable, typically. Additionally, it should be noted that using a cable inappropriate for the purpose will also act as a potential fusable link. All AC cabling can be approached as a potential fuse, in essence. For example, one cannot connect the house circuit directly to the high voltage lines used for long distance power transmission unless one wants the house to burn down. ALL WIRE IS RESISTANT TO A DEGREE TO THE FLOW OF CURRENT. Ever heard of a "super-conductor"? That is a conductor that is extremely condusive to current flow as opposed to a "regular" peice of run-of-the-mill cable. Its purpose: SPEED. What, wires slow down the flow of electrons? In short, yes, again by the property of resistance (actually it's reactance, but we'll call it resistance for now). Fact #2: Diameter, strand count and type, metalurgy, and length of cable run is all considered in calculating the current handling properties of a particular wire. The longer the run, the more resistance to current flow. The smaller the diameter, the more resistance to current flow. The less conductive the metalurgy employed, the more resistance to current flow. Fact #3: Power supplies draw current as needed to maintain a given storage capacity of voltage, as it were. They are also rated at full current draw as to amperage and voltage. This requirement is used to determine the type and nature of the AC cable required. The assumption that the PS is unaffected by AVAILABLE current flow is of course false. Power supplies relying on storage capacitance are likely to charge faster with more current than less. Even very small changes in available current will effect the charge and discharge timing of the PS in question. In the case of an electric stove used for cooking, who cares if it is 1 or 2 or more degrees off of the typical "red-hot" that it is capable of attaining at certain times of the day (or night) or even if it took a few extra seconds to arrive at that temperature. In the case of high quality audio gear, the same percentage of current flow variation WILL effect the output. It IS A REQUIREMENT of PHYSICS that this is the case. It SHOULD be noticable under conditions of an A/B test when the variation is great enough, which could resolve to how well one actually hears, or how good the reproducing speakers actually are. Fact #4: All wiring exhibits properties resistance, capacitance and inductance as inherent in its physical structure. Although small in value, these properties can be manipulated to enhance current flow. Other outside considerations such as noise, RF, and other non-useful modulations can be removed from the current source, filtered or otherwise rendered less interferring to the respective power supply as part of the effect applied by altering certain aspects of the cable itself. Some cables apply extra capacitance to accomplish some of this noise filtering. Additionally, ferrite material is used to add an RF rejection to some degree. Fact #5: The AC cable is a connective device of a flexible nature whose only purpose is to allow current to flow through it. Since different metals and combinations of elements (alloys) exhibit different conductivity ratings, then they can be used to control the flow of current in combination with other considerations. It can therefore be reasoned that certain cables allow MORE current flow than others from the same source, remembering that these are very small variations, yet can be measured. Silver, for example, has a higher conductivity quotient than copper. It would follow therefore, that silver cabling would present less resistance to current flow, as current flow was used to derive the conductivity quotient in the first place. DM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minn_male42 Posted March 1, 2005 Share Posted March 1, 2005 On 3/1/2005 4:15:25 PM D-MAN wrote: let's discuss some AC cabling issues. Fact #1: AC cabling is rated by a maximum wattage rating. This is due to the resistance of the cable to the flow of current, resulting in heat, and the ability of the cable to dissapate it. When too hot, it melts. Same effect as a fusable link, which is a wire which may have special additives, metalurgy and other considerations applied to it so that it melts at a chosen wattage/current rating. This rating is applied per foot of cable, typically. Additionally, it should be noted that using a cable inappropriate for the purpose will also act as a potential fusable link. All AC cabling can be approached as a potential fuse, in essence. For example, one cannot connect the house circuit directly to the high voltage lines used for long distance power transmission unless one wants the house to burn down. ALL WIRE IS RESISTANT TO A DEGREE TO THE FLOW OF CURRENT. Ever heard of a "super-conductor"? That is a conductor that is extremely condusive to current flow as opposed to a "regular" peice of run-of-the-mill cable. Its purpose: SPEED. What, wires slow down the flow of electrons? In short, yes, again by the property of resistance (actually it's reactance, but we'll call it resistance for now). response: irrelavent in a 6ft cable... and there are NO measurable differences between your aftermarket cable and the one that Mcintosh put in the box with your amplifier Fact #2: Diameter, strand count and type, metalurgy, and length of cable run is all considered in calculating the current handling properties of a particular wire. The longer the run, the more resistance to current flow. The smaller the diameter, the more resistance to current flow. The less conductive the metalurgy employed, the more resistance to current flow. response: again irrelavent in a 6ft cable... again no measurable differences between an aftermarket cable and the stock cable that came from the amp manufacturer Fact #3: Power supplies draw current as needed to maintain a given storage capacity of voltage, as it were. They are also rated at full current draw as to amperage and voltage. This requirement is used to determine the type and nature of the AC cable required. The assumption that the PS is unaffected by AVAILABLE current flow is of course false. Power supplies relying on storage capacitance are likely to charge faster with more current than less. Even very small changes in available current will effect the charge and discharge timing of the PS in question. In the case of an electric stove used for cooking, who cares if it is 1 or 2 or more degrees off of the typical "red-hot" that it is capable of attaining at certain times of the day (or night) or even if it took a few extra seconds to arrive at that temperature. In the case of high quality audio gear, the same percentage of current flow variation WILL effect the output. It IS A REQUIREMENT of PHYSICS that this is the case. It SHOULD be noticable under conditions of an A/B test when the variation is great enough, which could resolve to how well one actually hears, or how good the reproducing speakers actually are. response: if the power supply was operating at the maximum of available current, your "fact" would be correct.... but since your big mcintosh amp requires less than 10 amps of power to operate at max output.... there is plenty of extra power already in the circuit (15 amp circuit) - well over 5 extra amps of power... Fact #4: All wiring exhibits properties resistance, capacitance and inductance as inherent in its physical structure. Although small in value, these properties can be manipulated to enhance current flow. Other outside considerations such as noise, RF, and other non-useful modulations can be removed from the current source, filtered or otherwise rendered less interferring to the respective power supply as part of the effect applied by altering certain aspects of the cable itself. Some cables apply extra capacitance to accomplish some of this noise filtering. Additionally, ferrite material is used to add an RF rejection to some degree. response: show me some measurements of how your cable rejects RF and EMI radiation... there are no measurements or specs on audio quests website.... also generally unmeasurable RF and EMI readings in home enviroments Fact #5: The AC cable is a connective device of a flexible nature whose only purpose is to allow current to flow through it. Since different metals and combinations of elements (alloys) exhibit different conductivity ratings, then they can be used to control the flow of current in combination with other considerations. It can therefore be reasoned that certain cables allow MORE current flow than others from the same source, remembering that these are very small variations, yet can be measured. Silver, for example, has a higher conductivity quotient than copper. It would follow therefore, that silver cabling would present less resistance to current flow, as current flow was used to derive the conductivity quotient in the first place. response: irrelavent in a 6ft cable with an excess of power available for the amplifier taking "facts" that apply in long distances (like miles) and trying to apply them to your 6ft power cable is proving nothing.... nice try... but no cigar... still waiting for the model of that silver coated audio quest power cable Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-MAN Posted March 1, 2005 Share Posted March 1, 2005 {edit} so much for the "rich text" feature... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-MAN Posted March 1, 2005 Share Posted March 1, 2005 "response: irrelavent in a 6ft cable... and there are NO measurable differences between your aftermarket cable and the one that Mcintosh put in the box with your amplifier" How would you know? Have you even seen it or heard it? The issues of metalurgy and the applicable physical properties involved is not negated by a 6 ft. length. That's seems to be a convienient cop-out IMO. {edit} I would point out that it applies to virtually ANY LENGTH of cable, including interconnects, speaker cables, AC cables and internal speaker and crossover wiring, all of which make up the signal chain, and all of which add up to the overall sonic experience. Granted, there are limits as to what you can hear and what you can't, but theoretically, everything in the signal chain, including wires, all matters in the end. DM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Champagne taste beer budget Posted March 1, 2005 Share Posted March 1, 2005 I almost feel like I'm intruding in the Russ and D-MAN show, but what the heck. I will say, it's been a good read. I have to side with Russ on this one, but then, I have always been a naysayer to the high end wire debate. Granted, some high buck a/c cord may have a lower resistance than a $10 one, the question remains, is it a noticable difference? Not until the resistance of the wire becomes high enough that it prevents the required amperage to be available to the component can it make a difference. The high buck one may have less resistance, but if the $10 one has sufficiently low resistance to not be a problem, where is the benefit? Asthetics? The "look what I got" factor? I would not begrudge anyone for spending money on their system in whatever fashion they choose, but that doesn't mean their spending was necessary from a sound standpoint. If you like the way it sounds, good for you! Kinda like arguing about car colors; if you want to spend $10,000 for a custom mauve and butterscotch paint job on your car, good for you. Of course, I wouldn't personally do it, but hey, it's your car, your money, knock yourself out!! Just don't try and convince me that it makes it get better milage or lower it's 0-60 times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted March 1, 2005 Share Posted March 1, 2005 ---------------- On 2/28/2005 4:46:56 PM Gramas701 wrote: even with a simple ac bridge recifier (4 diodes and a zener diode) circuit it will convert 120 v ac or whatever into a perfect dc voltage using the reverse bias of a zener diode and the rectification circuit of the 4 diodes and a few capacitors. Meaning that as long as the power coming into the transformer isn't way below or above the capacitance( the amount of voltage in the + or - direction on the reverse bias the given circuit can handle NOT actually capacitance ie farads(it was the best word i could come up with and then realized it wasn't that great)) of the reverse bias of the circuit there will be no gain or loss in power. furthermore if the voltage ever did fall below or became greater than the reverse bias voltage it would either fry the zener diode or it would just let a very sine like dc voltage through and your stuff would probably not work. Basically in short there is no realistic way that i can see an increase in volume, unless i am missing something, (which has been known to happen) anyways ---------------- if the resistance ever became high enough that it lowered the amound of amperage the power supply in the unit would fail, most power supplies use this type of rectification circuit anyways Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted March 1, 2005 Share Posted March 1, 2005 The only hole I see in D-Man's claims is that he doesn't account for the fact that the difference between two cables will remain constant over time...in other words the conductivity of either cable isn't going to change over time. Inside your audio device is the transformer and then a bunch of other circuitry that is designed to filter the crappy power source into something useable within the thresholds of the device. If you are noticing an improvement by changing the power cable, then the device that you are using does not have strict enough thresholds...the only reason to have such loose thresholds is because other distortion characteristics in that device won't be reduced by the alterations caused by any issues with the power cable. Conclusion? Get better equipment. In my experience, very cheaply made transformers are able to maintain a constant .01 volt accuracy inside the device when the power supply is seeing an instant change of 20 volts. For what it's worth, .01 volts is fricken accurate. Some of the cooler more expensive transformers can even handle inputs between 100 and 240 volts without changing any of the circuitry (which is very convenient for products spanning american and european markets). Isn't there a way to correlate a change in voltage to a change in dB? Does anybody know many volts would be needed to cause just a 1dB change? What about a 3dB or 10dB change? I just want to see the smallest change of input voltage that is required to produce an audible 1dB change in output...don't forget to take into account that the threshold circuitry will need to be overloaded (and somehow not blow a fuse or deteriorate). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted March 1, 2005 Share Posted March 1, 2005 everyone here is forgetting the fact that as soon as that AC power hits that piece of eqiupment, it is converted to a constant DC voltage meaning that as long as that the ac voltage remains in the threshold of the rectifying circuit it doesn't matter if you have 125 or 115 volts ac it will still be converted to 10v dc etc..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Champagne taste beer budget Posted March 1, 2005 Share Posted March 1, 2005 I just had a thought, which I figued I should pass along since it happens so infrequently... Say you've got miles of transmission lines going from the power plant to your house, then the romex inside the house leading to the outlet where you plug in your system. If the $600 cord can in some way change the signal between the wall outlet and the input to the component, why not just buy a couple of em, have an electrician come out to the house and wire them into the power feed going into the house, thereby cleaning up ALL the current used in the house? The microwave would heat stuff faster, you'd get better color temperature off your light bulbs, I wouldn't doubt even your computer speeds would increase! Oh crap, I forgot about whole house power, might need to flow 200 amps. Hmmmmm... maybe buy 10 of em, figure 20 amps each, wire em in parallel? This could be the next big thing in improving everyones' household wiring!! Seriously, after all the crud this current has flowed through to get to the wall outlet, how can changing the last 6 feet effect a change? Wouldn't it be tanamount to taking a bicycle wheel with 60 spokes, all of em standard spokes, then replacing 2 of the spokes with high end racing wheel spokes, then telling your cycling buddy that you can feel when those 2 are hitting the ground because it feels smoother? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minn_male42 Posted March 1, 2005 Share Posted March 1, 2005 ---------------- On 3/1/2005 4:49:48 PM D-MAN wrote: "response: irrelavent in a 6ft cable... and there are NO measurable differences between your aftermarket cable and the one that Mcintosh put in the box with your amplifier" How would you know? Have you even seen it or heard it? The issues of metalurgy and the applicable physical properties involved is not negated by a 6 ft. length. That's seems to be a convienient cop-out IMO. {edit} I would point out that it applies to virtually ANY LENGTH of cable, including interconnects, speaker cables, AC cables and internal speaker and crossover wiring, all of which make up the signal chain, and all of which add up to the overall sonic experience. Granted, there are limits as to what you can hear and what you can't, but theoretically, everything in the signal chain, including wires, all matters in the end. DM ---------------- not a copout at all..... just a fact as long as the cable is of sufficient thickness to pass a full 15 amps, no "exotic" arrangement of copper molecules will pass any more current or pass it any faster.... the "facts" that you listed above apply to extremes... like very thin cables melting..... if you have a 14 gauge generic cable - in a 6 foot length it will measure virtually identical to a $10,000 power cable..... and yes i have measured a few cables - all the cables that i tried in my system i also took to work and we measured them on the scope.... they measured almost indentically to the generic 14 gauge cable that comes with all the crown and qsc amps that we sold.... even the 12 gauge cables measured the same thanks Dr Who and Gramas..... you guys are right on the mark with your comments!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nicholtl Posted March 1, 2005 Share Posted March 1, 2005 Champagne, your analogies with the cars and bicycles are hilarious! But very relevant as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fish Posted March 1, 2005 Share Posted March 1, 2005 ---------------- On 3/1/2005 6:58:36 PM Champagne taste beer budget wrote: Seriously, after all the crud this current has flowed through to get to the wall outlet, how can changing the last 6 feet effect a change? ---------------- My electric co uses Munster Cable.I've been tossed off more than one site for asking little more than this ?You know,those sites where the sponsers all sell the crap and everyone hears their system for the first time. I gotta say that although I don't think I'll ever be convinced that anything above adequate cables of any kind make any difference,DM has at least kept the discussion/debate civil.I can respect that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-MAN Posted March 1, 2005 Share Posted March 1, 2005 Russ, there are ALOT of things that cannot be measured on test equipment. That certainly doesn't mean that it doesn't exist, only that tests cannot be devised to accurately quantify it in a meaningful sense. For example, things described as "depth", "imaging", "clarity", "solidity", and other musical attributes that the human ear is the only viable and recognised mechanism by which the event can be experienced. There is no quantitative test as to the quality of musical peice like Beethoven's 9th Symphony. But we know it when we hear it, do we not? These things all exist as part of the physical world (as soundwaves and cohesive wave fronts) and are resolved by human perception, I'm sure that most of us would agree, yet they cannot be defined in an any electical test by any equipment. If there is a tweak available that enhances a quality of the listening experience, then that is a good thing in my book. And good AC cables happen to be, IMO, one of those tweaks. {edit} The reduction of the property of sound that would be recognised by all of us as "depth" to voltage and current values is meaningless. Don't get me wrong, I still am saying that measuring higher current flow would be a valid indication that a particular conductor would be the better choice than one that measures less current flow, given the same criteria. DM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Champagne taste beer budget Posted March 1, 2005 Share Posted March 1, 2005 Actually, I'm just shootin posts out my a$$ trying to get to No Life status. Well, not really, but I do like to try and make analogies to try and convey a concept to someone. And I will say, for two pages of this type discussion, it has remained pretty civil. This is the type of thread that I often see locked when I get back to the office in the morning. Good job, folks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minn_male42 Posted March 1, 2005 Share Posted March 1, 2005 ---------------- On 3/1/2005 7:24:18 PM D-MAN wrote: Russ, there are ALOT of things that cannot be measured on test equipment. That certainly doesn't mean that it doesn't exist, only that tests cannot be devised to accurately quantify it in a meaningful sense. For example, things described as "depth", "imaging", "clarity", "solidity", and other musical attributes that the human ear is the only viable and recognised mechanism by which the event can be experienced. There is no quantitative test as to the quality of musical peice like Beethoven's 9th Symphony. But we know it when we hear it, do we not? These things all exist as part of the physical world (as soundwaves and cohesive wave fronts) and are resolved by human perception, I'm sure that most of us would agree, yet they cannot be defined in an any electical test by any equipment. If there is a tweak available that enhances a quality of the listening experience, then that is a good thing in my book. And good AC cables happen to be, IMO, one of those tweaks. DM ---------------- if the AC signal was not processed, transformed, regulated, and changed into a totally different animal - you might have a point... but the bottom line is that every quality manufacturer knows that AC power is very inconsistent and sometimes contains noise and other garbage.... that is why they build heavy duty transformers and incorporate voltage regulation into the power supply... Dr Who and Gramas pointed out the exact technical areas in which this occurs.... power cables are the worst of the "snake oil" products out there.... at least in interconnects and speaker cables the voltage and current is much lower and capacitance and resistance actually can make a difference in the performance of the cable... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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