Kick It Posted March 17, 2005 Share Posted March 17, 2005 According to the lab test by Sound and Vision, the HK 7300 puts out 145 watts with 5 channels driven, while the Denon 3805 puts out 107 watts with 5 channels driven. I hear the RF-7 towers are power hungry and like the power. This makes me lean towards the HK 7300 and it's higher output, but it costs nearly twice as much as the Denon 3805. Do I really need the power of the HK 7300? It seems that at normal listening levels, I wouldn't be cranking out nearly the limit of the Denon 3805 anyway. So it's be: HK 7300 or Denon 3805 RF-7 mains RC-7 center RS-7 surrounds a sub, probably SVS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m00n Posted March 17, 2005 Share Posted March 17, 2005 I've been told a few times that the RF7s really open up around 200. I can not speak from experiance just what I've been told. I have a harman myself, the AVR7200. The harman mates up VERY well with Klipsch. How much is the 7300 by the way? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kick It Posted March 17, 2005 Author Share Posted March 17, 2005 The HK 7300 can be had for under $1400. The Denon 3805 is over $700. So if the RF-7's don't really open up till 200 watts, then maybe it wouldn't benefit me so much spending the extra $600 for 38 more watts and still be way shy of the 200 watts. Both recievers are very nice otherwise from what I've read with the Denon being a little more user friendly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m00n Posted March 17, 2005 Share Posted March 17, 2005 ---------------- On 3/17/2005 12:41:24 PM Kick It wrote: The HK 7300 can be had for under $1400. The Denon 3805 is over $700. So if the RF-7's don't really open up till 200 watts, then maybe it wouldn't benefit me so much spending the extra $600 for 38 more watts and still be way shy of the 200 watts. Both recievers are very nice otherwise from what I've read with the Denon being a little more user friendly. ---------------- Well... I dunno. That logic seems good, but... If it were me, and I could afford the money, I personally would go HK. That's just me though. Also as I've been told, HK underrates their power output and they are supposed to have high current which also helps produce a cleaner sound. At least what I've been told and read several times. I'm not authority on this, just re-iterating what I've seen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeorgeV Posted March 17, 2005 Share Posted March 17, 2005 I would test both receivers first before buying one. The RF-7's have a very noticeable dip in ohms in the bass region and can draw a lot of current from the receiver. Some users have experience clipping or even receivers powering off because of this dip at higher volumes. Since not all 100 watt receivers are the same, I would be very careful in choosing a SS receiver with only 100 watts. Some have much better capacitors and power supplies with can handle the RF-7's even at high volumes. Others can't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hunt Posted March 17, 2005 Share Posted March 17, 2005 I'm running a lowly Denon 2805 and it keeps up very well. I demoed the 3805 and the 2805 with the RF-7's. Aside from a few fancy features, I didn't perceive any noticeable difference in sound. I don't doubt that at 200 watts you might drive em better in the bass. However, I can fully attest to the fact that either one of those 2 recievers will kick some butt. With an SVS, you will not even need it. I've tried my RF-7's set "large" and "small", crossed at everything from 40 to 80. No problems with clipping. I can't even come close to reference level w/o getting yelled at by the wife. Listen to them yourself, and spend what your budget/conscience allows. However, if you go with the fewer watts of the Denon, IMO, you will not be disappointed. I love the sound of my RF-7's better every day! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
streyle Posted March 17, 2005 Share Posted March 17, 2005 you could also look at doing seperates.....find a cheaper pre/pro and go with a pro-amp to drive the RF-7 and RC-7..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrMcGoo Posted March 17, 2005 Share Posted March 17, 2005 I would go with the Denon 3805 and a Carver Pro ZR1000 outboard amp. Other 200 watt amps to look at would be Crown amps, QSC and other pro amps. The RF-7s have an impedance minimum per S&V of 2.8 ohms or 3.5 ohms in Home Theater mag. The minimum impedance requires an amp that is truly high current. If an amp has good power ratings at 4 and 2 ohms and a clean first watt, then it should be ideal for the RF-7s. IMO it is not the total watts avaialble at 8 ohms that is important. It is the watts doubleing form 8 to 4 and doubleing again at 2 ohms that tells me the amp has the power needed to keep frequency response level. Another useful number is the amps peak to peak. It takes good output devices and a good power supply to produce peak amps. Again, a clean first watt is required. Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minn_male42 Posted March 17, 2005 Share Posted March 17, 2005 ---------------- On 3/17/2005 1:56:23 PM MrMcGoo wrote: I would go with the Denon 3805 and a Carver Pro ZR1000 outboard amp. Other 200 watt amps to look at would be Crown amps, QSC and other pro amps. The RF-7s have an impedance minimum per S&V of 2.8 ohms or 3.5 ohms in Home Theater mag. The minimum impedance requires an amp that is truly high current. If an amp has good power ratings at 4 and 2 ohms and a clean first watt, then it should be ideal for the RF-7s. IMO it is not the total watts avaialble at 8 ohms that is important. It is the watts doubleing form 8 to 4 and doubleing again at 2 ohms that tells me the amp has the power needed to keep frequency response level. Another useful number is the amps peak to peak. It takes good output devices and a good power supply to produce peak amps. Again, a clean first watt is required. Bill ---------------- Bill beat me to it!! i also concur.... get an amp that can handle the low impedance flucuations and your sound will improve thoughout the entire range.... a good low cost way to see if you will get a noticable improvement with an outboard amp is to find a place in your area that rents sound systems for parties and such... you can usually rent a professional amp for about $25 for the weekend... (be sure to have them get you the adapters that you will need - RCA to XLR or RCA to TRS) take it home and play with it.... you WILL notice an improvement.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
streyle Posted March 17, 2005 Share Posted March 17, 2005 ---------------- On 3/17/2005 1:56:23 PM MrMcGoo wrote: I would go with the Denon 3805 and a Carver Pro ZR1000 outboard amp. Other 200 watt amps to look at would be Crown amps, QSC and other pro amps. The RF-7s have an impedance minimum per S&V of 2.8 ohms or 3.5 ohms in Home Theater mag. The minimum impedance requires an amp that is truly high current. If an amp has good power ratings at 4 and 2 ohms and a clean first watt, then it should be ideal for the RF-7s. IMO it is not the total watts avaialble at 8 ohms that is important. It is the watts doubleing form 8 to 4 and doubleing again at 2 ohms that tells me the amp has the power needed to keep frequency response level. Another useful number is the amps peak to peak. It takes good output devices and a good power supply to produce peak amps. Again, a clean first watt is required. Bill ---------------- for the price, I don't think the Crown amps can be beat.....$250 for a 260W/channel amp...... minn_male helped me in my search for an amp for RF-35s and he was right on...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kick It Posted March 17, 2005 Author Share Posted March 17, 2005 Going with the Denon 3805 for now and checking out an outboard amp later sounds like a good plan. I would have more power to give to the RF-7's and spend less doing it. I may be totally happy with the Denon by itself. I plan to buy this HT system a few pieces at a time anyway. Thanks for the help. This is a great forum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CECAA850 Posted March 17, 2005 Share Posted March 17, 2005 See if anyone has actually tested the 7300's output in 2 channel. H/K is notorious for under rating their power. The predecessor to the 7300 (7200) was rated lower than the 7300 by 10 or 15 watts. When Sound and Vision actually tested one in the 2 channel mode it put out over 190 watts before clipping. I would be surprised if the 7300 wasn't well over 200. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spkrdctr Posted March 18, 2005 Share Posted March 18, 2005 If you guys are clipping ANY 100 watt/ch or higher amp with an efficient speaker like the 7, than you are either deaf or darn near shattering glass in your house! I fear you guys are listening way too loud for your long term hearing health. Remember, Klipsch speakers are extremely efficient and do not need large amounts of power to produce fairly loud sound. If your trusty Radio Shack SPL meter is going over 100 at your listening spot, than you are doing damage to your ears....this means for most setups, you would be running about 5 to 7 watts RMS or 50 to 70 watts peak(depending on your distance from the speaker). Not much power at all. Remember, buy Klipsch, or don't buy at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrMcGoo Posted March 18, 2005 Share Posted March 18, 2005 I own a B&K ST2140 amp rated at 140 watts into 8 ohms and 185 watts into 4 ohms. It was loud enough to make you deaf alright. The problem was that the bass frequencies on the RF-7s were too boomy, a lot of one note bass. A better amp that drives low impedances gives better bass and has less chance of clipping. Clipping is possible when you are listening with power output below one watt. A 30 decibel peak requires 1,000 times the power. Headroom has its place. I have three different Telarc versions of the 1812; two are SACDs and one is a regular CD. They all feature cannon shots which are bound to make most amps clip at moderate volume levels. Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minn_male42 Posted March 18, 2005 Share Posted March 18, 2005 ---------------- On 3/18/2005 12:09:19 AM Spkrdctr wrote: If you guys are clipping ANY 100 watt/ch or higher amp with an efficient speaker like the 7, than you are either deaf or darn near shattering glass in your house! I fear you guys are listening way too loud for your long term hearing health. Remember, Klipsch speakers are extremely efficient and do not need large amounts of power to produce fairly loud sound. If your trusty Radio Shack SPL meter is going over 100 at your listening spot, than you are doing damage to your ears....this means for most setups, you would be running about 5 to 7 watts RMS or 50 to 70 watts peak(depending on your distance from the speaker). Not much power at all. Remember, buy Klipsch, or don't buy at all. ---------------- it's all about the peaks and bass control.... i also have the 1812 overture multichannel SACD..... listening to the beginning of the recording at a very reasonable level on my KLF-30's caused my carver professional ZR1000 to hit the clip indicator LED's on the cannon shots about 12 minutes later - and that is 225 watts per channel!!!! i routinely see peaks of well over 100 watts on many different classical works if you listen to rock or pop music, you will not see the extreme dynamics of classical music.... but you may see similiar peaks in very dynamic movie soundtracks... i would recommend at least 200 watts per channel in a quality amplifier..... you WILL notice a difference compared to weaker amps and definitely a huge difference compared to a receiver's amp section Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spkrdctr Posted March 18, 2005 Share Posted March 18, 2005 ---------------- On 3/18/2005 8:11:37 AM minn_male42 wrote: ---------------- On 3/18/2005 12:09:19 AM Spkrdctr wrote: If you guys are clipping ANY 100 watt/ch or higher amp with an efficient speaker like the 7, than you are either deaf or darn near shattering glass in your house! I fear you guys are listening way too loud for your long term hearing health. Remember, Klipsch speakers are extremely efficient and do not need large amounts of power to produce fairly loud sound. If your trusty Radio Shack SPL meter is going over 100 at your listening spot, than you are doing damage to your ears....this means for most setups, you would be running about 5 to 7 watts RMS or 50 to 70 watts peak(depending on your distance from the speaker). Not much power at all. Remember, buy Klipsch, or don't buy at all. ---------------- it's all about the peaks and bass control.... i also have the 1812 overture multichannel SACD..... listening to the beginning of the recording at a very reasonable level on my KLF-30's caused my carver professional ZR1000 to hit the clip indicator LED's on the cannon shots about 12 minutes later - and that is 225 watts per channel!!!! i routinely see peaks of well over 100 watts on many different classical works if you listen to rock or pop music, you will not see the extreme dynamics of classical music.... but you may see similiar peaks in very dynamic movie soundtracks... i would recommend at least 200 watts per channel in a quality amplifier..... you WILL notice a difference compared to weaker amps and definitely a huge difference compared to a receiver's amp section ---------------- As for what you both say, technically you are correct on the peaks, but for listening you really can't (usually) hear the difference in a 150 or 200 watt amp. Remember, doubling the power only gives you 3 db more volume, that is it. Basically nothing, when you are talking volume levels over 110db. Technically if you got a 500 watt per channel amp, then yes you could easily see a difference but for 90% of the situations, once you reach 100 watts per channel you are all set to go. You both brought up the 1812 CD which I also have. It is awesome in the cannon shots and will do exactly as you both say, requiring a lot of power not to clip. ***Changing my train of thought*** You can actually have a little clipping and not hear it! After haveing had hundreds of amps and recievers hookup to a scope and done numerous tests, it is amazing how well our mass market equipment works for 97% of all listeners. Another topic I will bring up to start a flame war is worrying about driving low impedances. It is not as big of an issue as the marketers would have you believe. I know I'm being heretical here and going against all of the marketing of high end equipment, but a lot if it is just marketing! Any reasonable amp will deliver pretty much all of the current you need for general use. Oops! I just gored the marketing ox..... I have even set up amps and seen the fuse element dance in the fuse holder from walking the line between overheating and cooling down to the music. That is really neat to see. By the time you run out of current, you will have massive clipping. The Carver equipment which I also like, is some of the best available. It is very well thought out and uses the right principles for high end audio (in my opinion). It addresses many of the voltage vs current issues for audio. Here is a thought for the day. 95% of the amps made run out of peak voltage capability and clip. This is a far greater concern than current. The high end audio, such as Carver (and others)deal with this issue quite nicely. Well, I have to go, work is calling. My last system I toyed with was 8,000 watts with EAW equipment...It friggen rocked! But that is another kettle of fish. Oh and my disclaimer....notice the use of "generally" and "usually" and 95% etc. There are ALWAYS exceptions. Some of you guys are in the 5% exception category. I tip my hat to you for spending the bucks to have awesome high end systems. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
streyle Posted March 18, 2005 Share Posted March 18, 2005 well I had taken minn_male's advice last weekend and went for a more powerful amp, the Crown XLS 402. I definitely can tell a difference in my RF-35s. I have a more full sound and it has helped the bass. There is a 100 page discussion over at avsforum about pro-amps and the general consensus is that this Crown XLS 402 amp ($250 at guitar center) can keep up with amps over $2000 or more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minn_male42 Posted March 18, 2005 Share Posted March 18, 2005 Spkrdctr, a more important issue than the peaks it the top 5% of the spectrum is the bass control... more than a few users here have remarked at the much improved bass response when going to a higher quality amplifier and if you are purchasing an outboard amp, why bother with a 100 or 150 watt amp when there are many very good choices (and probably more choices) that are in the same ballpark cost wise... so for just a few dollars more - you get better bass control/sound and the headroom to cover ALL the demands that any music/movies will make... and - heaven forbid - you decide to buy different speakers that require more power - you will not need to replace your amp as well.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spkrdctr Posted March 19, 2005 Share Posted March 19, 2005 ---------------- On 3/18/2005 10:31:19 AM minn_male42 wrote: Spkrdctr, a more important issue than the peaks it the top 5% of the spectrum is the bass control... more than a few users here have remarked at the much improved bass response when going to a higher quality amplifier and if you are purchasing an outboard amp, why bother with a 100 or 150 watt amp when there are many very good choices (and probably more choices) that are in the same ballpark cost wise... so for just a few dollars more - you get better bass control/sound and the headroom to cover ALL the demands that any music/movies will make... and - heaven forbid - you decide to buy different speakers that require more power - you will not need to replace your amp as well.... ---------------- You wise sage. You distilled my long winded post to the bare nuggets of truth. Yes, if you are going to spend big bucks or redo a system (upgrade) then by all means by high dollar/high power stuff. But, I just wanted to warn about all of the marketing hype of needing high current. Especially for high efficiency Klipsch speakers. It is pretty much hogwash. You do need high voltage capability and the high end stuff usually has it. I will also say that it is amazing how each amplifier brand and sometimes individual recievers and amps can sound different. Some really do have increased bass compared to others. I have seen cheaper Pioneer and Sony stuff outdo high end equipment in producing a nice pleasing sound with great bass or vice versa, you never know till hyou listen to a set up. You really do need to listen to a reciever or amp speaker combo to see how it sounds. This can be a major feat at most stores . I enjoy a lot of the anti-BS posts that most guys put up here. The "wire" issue posts are fantastic. I agree that cheap 14 ga wire will do wonders........and it is easy to work with! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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