KT66 Posted March 24, 2005 Share Posted March 24, 2005 Ok, guys I got completely bored with all this unnecessary toing and froing about A/B tests and all that cod's wallop, so I decided to settle this once and for all in this new thread and hope it knocks some sense into the small heads of the opposite camp: So sit still and listen: Cables are just like capacitors*. Different dielectrics sound different. Just listen to a Polyester vs. Polystyrene capacitor - chalk and cheese - Simple! dielectrics affect a signal because of hysterisis, dielectric absoption & polar effects all of which are frequency dependent just colledge physics! Capacitor dielectric properties rule e.g. digital sample and hold circuits need capacitors with low absorption and leakage so do not be surprised if these basic effects migrate all the way down to good old analog cables which use dielectrics .. and some use pretty cheap ones at that. NOT ALL CABLES ARE CREATED EQUAL BECAUSE NOT ALL DIELECTRICS USED HAVE THE SAME ELECTRICAL BEHAVIOUR. Epitaph: different cables can Sound Different in a given system: Period, Full stop, Punto. * Just in case some smart alec comes up with a wise crack, YES I can tell the difference between a cable and a capacitor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rivendell61 Posted March 24, 2005 Share Posted March 24, 2005 "Cods wallop...."! Good grief. Where are you from? Ahh, I see--I know there is some good trout fishing 'round Nether Wallop, Middle Wallop, and Over Wallop....down Hampshire way-- KT, I don't think the wire as capacitor point would be controversial-- The question is just how peculiar the wire has to be before the capacitive properties of the material became audible. Its like stating that a car has theoretical gravitational properties.... But does this effect your driving? Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KT66 Posted March 24, 2005 Author Share Posted March 24, 2005 .. Hampshire indeed , near Southampton but I can't claim being a full Brit. In the previous thread I quickly mentioned silver vs. copper sound but its too dangerous to get into that in this thread as it will smudge the focus and I'll get shot down in flames quicker. But I think there are issues regarding metal sound differences but can't offer any explanation beyond what I said there about electron relaxation times and even that is suspect as the times constants involved are way way beyond audio. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spkrdctr Posted March 24, 2005 Share Posted March 24, 2005 I'm sorry, but it is hooey. Real blind cable tests have been done as nauseum (thousands of times)and no one has EVER been able to hear a difference, including a few manufacturers who were willing to be tested. Everything else in the reciver/amp to speaker audio chain has more effect on sound, than the speaker wire. Again, I'm sorry to say this........ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frzninvt Posted March 24, 2005 Share Posted March 24, 2005 You must have the high frequency hearing sensitivity of a bat. I think your money could be much better spent elsewhere in the system instead of on esoteric cables. It reaches a point from a build quality standpoint and exotic materials that differences will be indistinguishable. I use a good quality twisted pair interconnects and since I employ so many of them, it would be insane to drop thousands of bucks into cables because the differences would most likely be inaudible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KT66 Posted March 24, 2005 Author Share Posted March 24, 2005 A) No one is talking about speaker wire or wire.. which was stricktly avoided please read carefully and focus on dielectric. If people can not hear cable differences (NOTE, I do not mean every cable as some might be very similar): A) they might as well sell their expensive hi-fi gear and buy mid-fi high street stuff for $150. To these folks it will probably sound the same. get their ears waxed The fact that differences exsit does not mean I advocate the purchase of megabuck cables (NEVER) I just say that I am more comfortable with some cables than with others REGARDLESS of price. These threads sure do get twisted around! I also use twisted pair cables because I like them over others I have but not exclusively, that should make my point: vivé lá differance Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yaffstone Posted March 24, 2005 Share Posted March 24, 2005 The interconnect cables are not connected in circuit as a capacitor. The ground side goes from ground to ground while the hot side goes from signal out to signal in. How much capacitance is there on one leg of a capacitor? None. The signal in a coax cable is effectively in a faraday cage just like the rest of any SS circuit inside the metal box. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KT66 Posted March 24, 2005 Author Share Posted March 24, 2005 I do not think this last comment even deserves a reply. but ..if that is what you really think NEVER use a phono cartridge or passive preamp. Coax cable capacitance ranges from about 60 to 150pf/m depending on guess what ? yep, the dielectric material and cable length. Cable dielectric (& therefore capacitance) is only one factor in cable issues and I'll repeat for the upteenth time: that factor is only one link in a chain of factors so is not the whole story only an important one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted March 24, 2005 Share Posted March 24, 2005 ---------------- On 3/24/2005 12:18:17 PM KT66 wrote: Coax cable capacitance ranges from about 60 to 150pf/m depending on guess what ? yep, the dielectric material and cable length. ---------------- And what is the overall frequency response difference between two cables of 60 and 150 pf/m? I have a feeling that it's well out of the audible range... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacksonbart Posted March 24, 2005 Share Posted March 24, 2005 "Epitaph: different cables can Sound Different in a given system: Period, Full stop, Punto." Why do you feel compelled to keep bringing this up? If youre convinced that they make a difference then by all means spend your extra time and money on them. Enjoy them and the impact they make on your system. I have seen threads of like minded people who agree and you have and should continue have those nice discussions. What is the point of trying to convincing other people who dont hear a difference? Its clear in your statement that is what your trying to do. Is it to validate that you hear something your not actually hearing? I am all for a discussion, but this one as been done to death. A fool and his money are soon parted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-MAN Posted March 24, 2005 Share Posted March 24, 2005 I believe that the bottom line IS, in actuality, that EVERY thing in the signal path COUNTS in the end. That seems quite inarguable to me. Since this a way to look a the world, is it not consistant that things and their respective performance is the sum of their parts? The idea that SOME parts of large organized and purposeful systems can be regarded as not having an effect, leaves me with the question of WHY that particular part is there in the first place. Seems to me that the disregarding of the value of certain elements making up the system as a whole is a matter of ease rather than inquiry. I refuse to regard certain integral parts of my audio system, or my computer, or my car, or airplane, or space-shuttle, for instance, as being unimportant or incidental or inconsequential to the operation, performance, and safety of the system (whatever it is) as a whole. Anyone who tells me to do so is clearly insane. DM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KT66 Posted March 24, 2005 Author Share Posted March 24, 2005 diff between 60 & 150 is probably zilch I was pointing out that cables do have the big C for the benefit of a previous commentator. It is the concomitant dielectric effects that count. Again, as regards cables and money PLEASE read what I write I have NEVER said £1000/m cables are best. Hearing cable differences has nothing to do with paying big bucks for exotic cables. Just use what ever cable your ears like be them cheap or expensive. I've tried 'expensive' cables that are a complete wait of money and time luckily I never bought them. Done to death, I totally agree, hence the reason behind 'Epitaph' in the thread title. this thread was intended to have been limited to my openning commnet only. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pauln Posted March 24, 2005 Share Posted March 24, 2005 I am reading arguments here for audible cable differences that say "Logically it must be true that..." or "Its inarguable that thus and so is true..." Invoking logic does not make your point logical. I'm seeing here arguments on both sides that remind me of the townsfolk deducing that a woman is a witch by comparing her wieght to a duck using a balance scale (to infer if she would float). The "everything in the signal path counts" implies that the differences can be distinguished and heard. So first, the truth of this premise must be established - the way to do that is to perform careful measurements in specific ways to control for self deception. The premise may turn out to be false, but to refuse the test is to refuse the premise it's initial chance for validation. To proceed without test is to beg the question (assume true what you set out to prove) or maintain the arguement as hypothetical rather than real. KT66 and DMan are trying to express that the differences ARE REAL, and negative test results do not effect the subjective experience that the difference is REAL. Something is inadequate about the testing. IT GETS MUCH WORSE...Think about this: In the placebo tests the premise is that the placebo is something that cannot have any physical effect, yet the interesting part of the experiments is the conclusion that they do. But what a minute, if they do, this nullifies the major premise that they don't - therefore the experimental design is flawed and the conclusion cannot be infered. This is almost like weird quantum physics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KT66 Posted March 24, 2005 Author Share Posted March 24, 2005 Boy, I promise this is my last input .. So then , for some unknown reason, if none of the foregoing is correct, why are there are only one or two cables out of at least a dozen I have, I can sit down and enjoy becasue the tonal balance is better than that of others cables in the box and I'm not refering to subtle differences .. and I have no bias towards any of the cables other than the results I hear and they are not exotic types by any means. If all those cables sounded the same I would not be trying to flog a dead horse .. so I'm finished with this and bid you farwell. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dodger Posted March 24, 2005 Share Posted March 24, 2005 The Epitaph To The Sound Of Cables Yea, Though some knew it well and some knew it not at all, it is a subject that as one breathes and can smell a flower and some cannot. And some will say the flower is real and some will say it is not It is not our task to prove whether plastic or petal, true scent or sprayed The person that breathes decides on their own and one cannot justify the reasons for thought Each one decides if it is or it's naught. dodger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-MAN Posted March 24, 2005 Share Posted March 24, 2005 Paul, No, I'm not implying that - I'm STATING that! EVERYTHING in the SIGNAL PATH COUNTS. Every part of every THING COUNTS. EVEN DOWN AT THE MOLECULAR LEVEL, if you want to get down to the nitty-gritty of things. Like in a flying 747, EVERYTHING MAKING IT A 747 COUNTS. IT IS THE SUM OF ITS PARTS. ITS ABILITY TO PERFORM (as in FLY) IS THE RESULT OF EVERY ONE OF ITS MILLIONS OF CONSTITUANT PARTS. This IS INARGUABLE. PERIOD. If you want to talk about the "ACCEPTABLE" tolerances of performance within a given system, that's something else. But invoking logic has NOTHING to do with it. DM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfogg Posted March 24, 2005 Share Posted March 24, 2005 " NOT ALL CABLES ARE CREATED EQUAL BECAUSE NOT ALL DIELECTRICS USED HAVE THE SAME ELECTRICAL BEHAVIOUR." Which makes no difference at audio frequencies. Dielectric properies only have effects at much much higher frequencies. Why do you think the cable companies that talk about dielectric differences only show tests in the megahertz range? Shawn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KT66 Posted March 24, 2005 Author Share Posted March 24, 2005 Balloks ! so capacitor dielectrics don't matter either, I can see you using electrolytic caps for coupling and claiming they sound equal to polyprops. goodness gracious me ! No my friend you've been badly misinformed, like when Rick was sent to French Morrocco for the waters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minn_male42 Posted March 24, 2005 Share Posted March 24, 2005 ---------------- On 3/24/2005 3:06:20 PM KT66 wrote: Balloks ! so capacitor dielectrics don't matter either, I can see you using electrolytic caps for coupling and claiming they sound equal to polyprops. goodness gracious me ! No my friend you've been badly misinformed, like when Rick was sent to French Morrocco for the waters. ---------------- you should do some research on shawn's (sfogg) posts.... he is one of the most knowledgable persons on this and a few other forums that i read.... and it just so happens that ALL of the scientific evidence is on shawn's side here you should do some more reading newbie and you may learn something.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DRBILL Posted March 24, 2005 Share Posted March 24, 2005 ---------------- A fool and his money are soon parted. ---------------- Actually, the bromide is "A fool and his money are some party!" At least, that has been my experience. DR BILL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.