Clipped and Shorn Posted May 4, 2005 Share Posted May 4, 2005 I recently had a rare opportunity to hear A/B comparisons between master tape mix, Cassette, CD, 33 rpm, 45 rpm, and 78 rpm. In 1986 I made a recording of original latin jazz music on analogue 16 track 2" tape (this was done in a real recording studio with Neuman microphones at the Steinway grand piano etc). After a year of multitracking and invited guest soloists, this session was mixed down to a 1/4" half track master which I recently decided to reissue from the 1/4" master mix. Previously it was only available on cassette and the project already paid for itself. Needless to say, the CD sounded better than the cassette. For fun, experience, and perhaps vanity, I decided to explore the idea of issuing the album on vinyl. This meant, first, elimating the 10 minute "slow" track from side I (which would not fit on vinyl), and then also reversing side I and side II. so the LP would seem more like a latin jazz presentation than a "new age" product which is the genre it sold in previously. At the studio where the lacquer masters were cut on a beautiful restored Scully Lathe directly from the original 1/4" tape masters on a Ampex ATR tape machine, we set it up so that the newly cut lacquer reference masters could be compared directly with the same track on the newly mastered CD. I was thus able to compare ( A/B back and forth) the sound of CD compared to the same track on 33 1/3 rpm, 45 rpm, and even 78 rpm and all compared to the sound of the master tape directly from the Ampex. There was no doubt or even anything controversial about the obviousness of these sonic comparisons. The 33 dics sounded better than the CD, the 45 sounded even better, the 78 better still ( with 78 almost no perceptible difference from the original tape master). The CD, by comparison has a more "grainy" sound compared to hearing the master tape directly. The 33.3 disc was more musical and only slightly "compressed sounding" compared to the original master but more musical than the CD. The 45 rpm was spectacular (I only put one tune on each side, so the lines per inch could be lowered, thus giving more volume and more headroom). The 78 rpm (a 10" lacquer master disc) could not even hold the whole tune and was done mostly to just hear the sound which was the ultimate in accurate reproduction off the Ampex tape machine. The 78 sounded so good I even considered for a moment the idea of issuing something at that speed but this proved impractical with the length of these tunes (but not ruled out for future projects, eg. tunes made under 3 minutes per side). From the audiophile perspective, I do not understand why more vinyl is not issued at this 45 rpm speed, also it seemed to be a no brainer, that if one wanted a more musical presentation, vinyl was the way to go compared to CD. I am currently having the metal parts (stampers) made for both a 12" 33 rpm LP and a 45 rpm 12" with the two selected tunes. The 1986 mix is not completely up to the standards I might have these 20 years later, but it seems that going back to remix the 2" tape may not be all that practical at this point since it has become an archival project with 20+ year old tape. It is perhaps time to move on and make new material which could be (also) issued in limited edition vinyl. Perhaps in the future these vanity projects could be projected into some business justification with the help of a website . It is all in the works, at least in my imagination at this point. I am now waiting for the "test pressings" and then I will have to deal with the graphics (labels and album cover etc.) before having a hundred or so pressed from the metal stampers. Then I will leave little stashes (donations) in various thrift stores around town so fini can find them and then sell them on eBay and make me famous......who was that masked man?...... In a few years they will be collected in Japan for big prices.....they will buy anything from US...... C&S Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrot Posted May 4, 2005 Share Posted May 4, 2005 Do you know what kind of relative dynamic range was dialed in for CD versus vinyl? It would be a better comparison if you knew that both had the same. But if you heard the vinyl sounding a little compressed, I'm presuming they deliberately squished the dynamics to make cutting the record easier. I've found some people actually prefer things considerably squished more than they do when it's just a wee squished. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clipped and Shorn Posted May 4, 2005 Author Share Posted May 4, 2005 "compressed" was just my arbitrary word for describing how dramatic the difference was when I heard the same material at 45 rpm. Both sounded fantastic and nothing was messed with, it was direct from master tape to Scully. Not that the CD doesn't sound cool, it is just that anyone, I feel, would be able to hear the difference with the vinyl. All my future projects will involve at least some limited editions on this media because of its audiophile qualities. C&S Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3dzapper Posted May 4, 2005 Share Posted May 4, 2005 C&S, Thank you, that was very imformative coming from the horse's mouth so to speak. I have never bought a 45RPM album. Your post has piqued my interest in finding one I am familiar with so as to compare. Great! Now I will have four copies of something. My wife thinks (?) I am nuts now. Rick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timmikid Posted May 4, 2005 Share Posted May 4, 2005 Wow, whata wonderful project! I know a few thrift stores in Holland if you need a distributor! There is only one Fini, but other mysterious maniacs roam this country for sure! (I know, I consider myself one) As a jazz fan I am very interested in how much your vanity is justified, will this record be issued on this forum? Did you playback the 78rpm with the same cart as the 33/45rpm. I have no experience with this. My Dual 701 (1974) does not even have a 78 speed anymore! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fini Posted May 4, 2005 Share Posted May 4, 2005 Actually, there are three of us finis. Two are being held in underground bunkers in undisclosed locations, to be released should something happen to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timmikid Posted May 4, 2005 Share Posted May 4, 2005 ---------------- On 5/4/2005 4:33:00 PM fini wrote: Actually, there are three of us finis. Two are being held in underground bunkers in undisclosed locations, to be released should something happen to me. ---------------- O no! Maybe the real Fini is cuffed and masked, held underground. He was acting kind of strange lately!!! I think Fini's gear should be collected and stored in a safe place in Holland untill the real Fini is found and we have absolute proof! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted May 4, 2005 Share Posted May 4, 2005 I have a Bruce Hornsby and the Range on 45 rpm LP I'm not sure where I even got it. It was really funny the first time I dropped the needle on it not knowing it was 45 rpm. I thought man this dosn't sound familar and is the worst recording I have ever heard on LP LMAO !! Then they started singing and I realized it was 45 rpm. Once played at the proper speed the album proved to be one of my best recorded LP's I have. Craig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ben. Posted May 4, 2005 Share Posted May 4, 2005 Thanks, Clipped. Very interesting post. I had no idea you were even a musician. Was the vinyl job expensive or crazy expensive? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZAKO Posted May 5, 2005 Share Posted May 5, 2005 Actually two of the FINI,s are dead. The underground bunker was flooded with Jack Danials. They could.nt drink it fast enough. They exploaded. Gurgling sounds could be heard two blocks away. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garymd Posted May 5, 2005 Share Posted May 5, 2005 I believe there's a recent audiophile copy of Brubeck's Time Out/Take Five available on 45. That would be a nice one to test. I saw it advertised at Elusive Disc and Acoustic Sounds a while back. It wasn't cheap though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clipped and Shorn Posted May 5, 2005 Author Share Posted May 5, 2005 ---------------- On 5/4/2005 9:27:21 PM ben. wrote: Thanks, Clipped. Very interesting post. I had no idea you were even a musician. Was the vinyl job expensive or crazy expensive? ---------------- Not really expensive. The lacquer masters were less than $100 per side. Same for metal parts. Then pressing is around $1 per for the small quantities I am doing. Then add graphics for cover and labels. I think the 45 rpm 12" with the two cool tunes will be very hip. If I can figure a way to make this kind of pay for itself, I will do future such art projects. The heavier vinyl would be more expensive and require larger numbers to start (eg. pressing 1000+). "Did you playback the 78rpm with the same cart as the 33/45rpm. I have no experience with this. My Dual 701 (1974) does not even have a 78 speed anymore! " Yes, the idea is 78rpm MICROGROOVE. You just change speed not the cartridge or stylus. This format was briefly tried years ago as an audiophile thing but apparently didn't catch on. It would be fun and unusual to do this again, but the market would be so limited. I have 78rpm on my Technics table, but most audiophiles would not have 78 rpm on their high end tables. 12" 78 rpm microgroove would not be cool unless the vinyl was at least 200gram, but a 10" microgroove 78 rpm might work with regular vinyl. Still the idea is too esoteric, so I probably will not pursue it. I am now waiting for the "test pressings", then I can proceed to the next step. I'll keep the forum posted. c7s Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ben. Posted May 5, 2005 Share Posted May 5, 2005 Wow. I'd have thought it'd be a bit more expensive. I'd sure be interested in hearing the results when you get there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clipped and Shorn Posted May 5, 2005 Author Share Posted May 5, 2005 ---------------- On 5/5/2005 2:45:26 PM ben. wrote: Wow. I'd have thought it'd be a bit more expensive. I'd sure be interested in hearing the results when you get there. ---------------- DJs now make music on their HD recorders (computers), send a file on CD or Mp3 and for $200 they get a lacquer master, then press a few hundred, make a few bucks, then do it again in a couple of months. There are stores which do nothing but sell this dj vinyl. My project, by contrast, was cut from an analogue master tape, so it will sound a bit better than the run of the mill dj vinyl project. I am currently investigating ways that I might make my project available, even though it started out mostly as a vanity project to reissue something I did 20 years ago. Now it has got the wheels turning and I am wondering if I want to pursue this idea with future projects. c7s Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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