Legends vs. Reference...

[Seb]

So what's up?

What do you guys think, how do the two series of speakers compare? I will be buying some speakers soon and I needed to decide between going for the legends (hey, HornEd has them, they must sound really good) and going for the Ref models...

I want impact for home theater and for music, deep bass is not THAT important since I've got that pretty much covered already with my sub.

Cost is very much an issue, but since I can get everything at cost price from my store... Any speaker is accessible. I've noticed the Legends are discontinued, that will thus force me to make a move fast.

Also, is it easy to find a center match for the Legends? I don't really care too much about the surrounds since I rearely listen to surround music and in movies the surrounds are only there for subtle ambience and quick swoosh sounds, so therefore the level must be matched but I think I can live with the fact that the sound won't exactly match.

So basically what I need are two front speakers plus a center channel, since those are the real crucial speakers for a home theater and music application.

So go on with your input, comments, advice, etc.!

[Mike Lindsey]

See Here

Mike

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Family Room

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Hitachi 43UWX10B HDTV (16:9)

Denon AVR-4800

Panasonic DVD-RP91K (Progressive Scan & DVD-Audio)

Dual CS-5000 Turntable w/Shure V15V-MR

DBX 3bx Series III Range Expander

Klipsch Epic CF-2's (mains)

Klipsch KLF-C7 (center)

Klipsch RS-3's (surrounds)

SVS 20-39CS Sub w/Samson S700 Amp

Monster HTS-3500 Line Conditioner

Scientific Atlanta Explorer 2100 Digital Cable box

Monster M-500 Component Video cables

Monster Datalink 100 Digital Coaxial cables

Radio Shack Gold Series for all other audio interconnects

Bedroom

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Mitsubishi 31" TV

Yamaha M-4 Amp

Yamaha C-4 Preamp

Yamaha T-7 Tuner

Teac DVD Player

Dual CS-721 Turntable w/B&O MMC2

Looking for a pair of Heresy's

This message has been edited by Mike Lindsey on 09-02-2001 at 11:01 AM

[Seb]

sounds like the KLF's would be winners in my case...

I'd like to hear from other people though. (especially HornEd!)

thanks for the link mike!

[Colin]

since cost is always an issue, I would think that the discontinued models are cheaper and therefore desire serious consideration - all other things being equal - I do not think it is that hard to match the center channel, if you find that you need it ( my TV does the center channel quite well on movies) - if you can get them at cost, I would auditon several models for long periods of time at home ...

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big old horns, tube amps, tube pre-amp, British CD player, two subs, double wire, pipe insulation, paving stones, rubber mats & curtains

[Seb]

I will probably only buy two mains for the time being, keep one of my Sony or JBL speakers for the center, and if I find that it does not match properly and that I can actually notice it in movies, I'll consider buying a matching center...

I doubt it though.

Anyways, I'm still waiting for a good answer from someone who has tried both ref and legends... Form what I read thus far the Legends attract me (more "in your face" sound), but I don't want to make a decision solely on a couple short listens in a store...

/edit/

And since I basically just started working at the place, I can't see myself special ordering a couple pairs of speakers to try them out then pick only one... Just not possible.

Also, what about differences in sound between the KLF-20 and KLF-30?? I'm hesitating... Thinking about the KLF-20 more because of cost and practicality (wouldn't even be a special order), but then will I be able to live without the ultimate speaker in the line?

This message has been edited by Seb on 09-03-2001 at 06:03 PM

[RWMIN]

I bought the ref rc3 center and I got to A-B the Legends against the RF 3's. I choose the Legends and returned the rc 3 for the Klf C7 once I learned it was available. I thought the Legends were much more accurate. The RF3's absolutely colored the music to me and the Legends didn't. At first I liked the RF3's open, detailed sound but after several trips to and from my local dealer, my wife and I both agreed on the Legends. The ref line broke up when pushed and the Legends played like they were just getting started. I liked that.

As for the difference between the KLF 20's and 30's. The 30's have a more bass inclined tonal balance then the 20's (not as bright?). I have read that some prefer the 20's to the 30's because of the clarity from the 20's rather then the bass tonality from the 30's. I have also seen were people thought that the Legends were Bright, I don't think they are referring to the 30's but instead the 10's - 20's but to me the 30's are anything but bright. In fact I think the 30's kick a-- exspecially when mixed with the KLF C7 and Klf 10's in 5 ch stereo! VERY CLEAR and it actually "HAMMERS" it out when cranked with absolutely no sign of distress at any volume from my Denon 3300 (105 watts X 5). Others have referred to the 30's as being muddy compared to the 20's(dull, not so bright?). I found the 30's are very smooth to me.

As BOBG once said to me, if you find yourself smiling when it's loud and at it's best, then your a 30's kind of guy. He actually said it better but that's close enough and I am a 30's kind of guy!

Denon 3300

KLF 30's mains

Klf C7 center

Klf 10's A. rears

Klf s5's B.rears

Paradigm PW 2200 sub

This message has been edited by RWMIN on 09-03-2001 at 10:46 PM

[T2K]

Seb, in my small opinion the 30's will perform best when matched with an amp(200WPC) that is capable of extracting all that they are capable of.Otherwise(receiver)get the 20's.Just my small opinion. :^)

Keith

[boa12]

seb, keith has a point there. the 30s have great slam specially in that 40-160hz range, but they slam best w/

good high power/high current amps. can't wait to hear 'em w/ the new acurus A200X5 power amp (keith)

i listened to the rf-7 & while being an excellent, refined & detailed speak, they still don't have the slam of the 30s though they come closer than the rf-3.

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Klipsch KLF 30 (front), KLF C7, Cornwall I (rear)

Velodyne HGS-18 sub woofer

Monsterbass 400 sub interconnect/Monster MCX-2 biwire & Z cable

Marantz SR-8000 receiver

Sony DVP-C650D 5-disk cd/dvd player

Sony Trinitron 27" stereo tv

Toshiba hi-fi stereo vcr

Technics dual cassette deck

Scientific Atlanta Explorer 2100 digital cable box

Monster HTS1000 PowerCenter

Boa's Listenin Lounge:

Klipsch RF-3, RC-3

Monster MCX-1 Biwire

Sony STR-DE935 a/v receiver

Kenwood KR-9600 AM/FM stereo receiver (vintage 1975)

Russound AB-2 receiver switch to RF-3

Teac PD-D1200 5-disk cd changer

Technics SL-1950 turntable/AT LS500 cartridge

rock on!

[boa12]

& seb, that matching 99db efficient C7 is currently going for around us$250-300. that's what u need w/ the

30s.

[Craig6519]

I too prefer the Legends to the reference series, I've heard the 10,20 and 30 and found the slam and smoothness of the 30's to be the best to my taste. I've only ever heard the RF3 to compare them too never the RF7's and I thought the RF3 were way too bright, however the RF7's might be a huge Improvement over the RF3's

Craig

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Klipsch KLF30 Mains

Klipsch KLF-C7 Center

Klipsch KSP-S6 Surrounds

Klipsch KG4 Surrounds

Klipsch KSB 1.1 Front Effects

Dual SVS 20-39CS Sub's

Samaon S700 Sub Amp

Yamaha DSP-A1

Yamaha MDX-793 Mini disc

Yamaha TX-492 Tuner

Sony CDP-C701ES 5 disc Player

Panasonic A110 DVD

Hitachi MX6080EM Muli-system HI-FI VCR

Hitachi 29" T.V.

Denon DP-37F Turntable

[Seb]

Oh geez!!

Now you're making me think about buying a separate amp... nooo!!

It has to stop somewhere, and the max that I will allow myself for the next few years are either 20s or 30s plus maybe a matching center if I hear the need for it.

I would definitely love that extra 30s slam, but isn't the point almost moot with the use of a good sub? I won't need to use a better amp to drive more bass out of the 30s if I can achieve that same bass level with a good sub and let the 20s pick it up from there, right?

Remember, the speakers will VERY RARELY be used alone, i.e. in stereo without sub active... I just can't stand the big gaping hole down low, I need my couch to vibrate.

It seems like I am a Legends type of guy though. I will definitely go audition the 20s (don't think it'll be possible for the 30s). Now the real big decision is between the 2 and the 3 before the zeros... Do you guys think it'd be worth it in my situation?

PS, this will not be for critical purist listening, I want the sound to be big and impressive and in your face, so subtle differences are not that important in the long run. Sure I will hear them, but will it bring enough happiness and joy to me to warrant the added expense? Cuz that's my bottom line, I have to have my money's worth of excitement here, or else I'll buy a PS2 (I probably will anyways...) with the extra money!

Oh, and I don't want to be too far past the point of diminishing returns on investment. This upgrade will probably be one of my last. Too many other passions to pursue. (Yeah, I know, I'm kidding myself, but I'm hoping I'll actually start believing all that one day)

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'cuz not a lot of people have ever said

"Pump up the treble!"

[RWMIN]

I think the 20's and a C7 would be great. I have heard the 20's and they are very nice indeed.

If it wasn't for my new dirt bike and the kids quad I would buy a set to replace my 10's with.

I think that the 30's would be at their absolute best with 200 wpc too!

[boa12]

u don't have to have an extreme high powered amp for the 30s slam. just a unit w/ some high current. my current marantz sr8000 does 'em well. just that most of the current is soaked by the woofers for BASS so the more the better.

i had never heard the being in the same room feeling of the resonance of a kick-drum until i put the 30s & sr8000 together at 110db at the listening position. well not in my home anyway. at a friend's party but he had the band in his living room/foyer.

& that's why i kept wanting that adjustable crossover.

if u cut them at 80hz u take away some of their slam. & imo the 30's slam tighter & better from about 50hz up than any single sub. but for that u have to give em the juice (current) as the subs tend to have a lot of that themselves w/ their own amp. let the sub handle the 50 or 60hz on down.

as for the highs being too bright or harsh, i think its

a matter of overwhelmed senses w/ such detail at such a high efficiency (102 db). i mean these things are quite louder than my cornwalls (98.5db). if u like the

highs & mids of the 20s seb, i'm sure you'll love the 30s. they're for people who really dig the 2nd octave on up too.

[TheEAR]

I did listen to the KLF30's and I liked the efortless presentation,these can play at extreme volumes with little stress.To get the max out of the KLF30 you need a good power amp.Recievers are just not up to the task,sure you will get the loudness but not the bass grip large power amps have.

The RF-5 I have on trial at home so far are quite good,not the same efortless quality the larger KLF's have.The RF series are more "audiophile" like. LOL

Still for true horn fans the KLF 20 and 30 are still the best bet.

I will get the RF-7 as soon as the dealer here in Montreal gets them.These will serve as the main speakers for my HT system.

Right now I am using the Dynaudio Contour 3.3's in my music only system.

Oh yes the KLF VS RF...I'll would go with the RF-7 since I prefer the "audiophile" sound.Audiophile sound with slam.

TheEAR(s) Now theears

[Seb]

well from what I've read pretty much everywhere, the KLF-20s seem to be for me!!

I'll try to audition them ASAP, which could be in a while...

[cc1091]

Seb -

After you get that new amp, make sure to buy some good speaker cable with them. None of this radio shack cheapie stuff. MIT or Monster cable of about an inch thick. Don't forget the banana plugs.

I recommend the MIT Terminator 2 at as little as $130 per ten foot pair, plus another $15 for the banana plugs. <JK>

<actually, if you can afford it. I highly recommend it>

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Denon AVR-2700

Denon DCD1500-II

Audio Control Octave

Phillips CDR-765

Nakamichi BX-100

Sony PS-LX3

Rotel RB-991

Klipsch Heresy (1981)

Klipsch RP-3

B&W602

MIT Terminator2 Bi-Wire

Computer sound system:

NAD 7130

Realistic Optimus Pro-7s (its only a computer system)

Klipsch KSW-10

This message has been edited by cc1091 on 09-11-2001 at 10:39 PM

[TheEAR]

Yes a good quality amp and good speaker wire is not an option to get the maximum out of high quality speakers.

The amps in most recievers(read 98% of all recievers)are of poor quality.These amps are recomended for 8 ohms speakers and start giving up with 4 ohms loads!

And its not all these amps sound often edgy(pushed hard),all have poor damping,distortion and claimed specs are clownish.

I recomend a good reciever with 5.1 or 7.1 outs(Yamaha 2000,Denon 3801)and then to add a real good 5 channel power amp.ATI is one of the few that dont cost too much and give very good(damn good)performance.

Just dont belive the peeps who will tell you amps sound the same,its NOT true.The amplifier is a crucial piece in the overall sound quality puzzle.

TheEAR(s) Now theears

[Seb]

Hey theears, never noticed you lived in the same spot as I do! I work in a Dumoulin, so I'll be able to tell you if you want when exactly either Dumoulin or Audiotronic receives the RF-7.

I think I'd be better off with the 20s. Don't wanna sink too much dinero in my system, I'll be starting out in life very soon and I'll need all the monetary resources I can have. Plus I want to buy a motorcycle.

Buying an external amp is definitely not in my budget for the time being, so I think much of the difference between the 20s and 30s would be lost on me, right?

[JJT]

Seb, have you considered some old Heritages, Chorus's or Fortes? I picked up a pair of Cornwalls, awhile back, best 700 bucks I've spent.

JJT

[TheEAR]

Yes Seb I saw you live not too far from TheEAR(s).

By the way I dont want to sound like a snooty audiophile elitist but I only buy gear from other audiophiles(second hand) and audio shops that know me and where I can stay all day and just sometimes chat.

I hold in high regard Filtronique,Opus(closed

),Radio St-Hubert(yes this small store has audio products most can deam about),Codell and Kebecson.

He he I am a real elitist,and proud of it!

No store can sell me anything,I walk in and say GIVE ME THIS.LOL then they can claim they sold someting BIG fast! LOL

I am a BIG Dynaudio and Klipsch fan,Dynaudio Contours for music and Klipsch Reference for HT!

Krell and SimAudio(from Quebec yes sir)are my fave amps.I have a collection of SimAudio amps(from 4070 to Moon W5!).Power and grace

To me Stereo Review is TP and Stereophile is like a bible.Most dont like Stereophile only because they cant buy the High-End featured there.I like it because many of my components are on the recomended list!

TheEAR(s) Now theears