tofu Posted May 21, 2005 Share Posted May 21, 2005 for the time being i've been using 3.5mm to rca connectors to get this to work with my santa cruz soundcard. now that i've upgraded to winxp x64, my soundcard is no longer and will no longer be supported. there is far too much noise with my onboard sound, and there arent even official drivers out for it yet. that leaves me with one option. UPDGRADE! now, i've been looking at this audiophile 192 from m-audio. according to word of mouth, it seems to be a very good soundcard. the problem is, i'm unsure what kind of connection converters i'd need. here is a link for reference (http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_us/Audiophile192-main.html). it doesnt seem to have the normal 3.5mm or rca outputs that i'd use. i'm not sure why it has three red and three white connectors (excuse my lack of vocabulary) as it seems to be only a two channel card (correct me if i'm wrong). i don't have any fancy digital inputs on my amp, as it's rather old (mcintosh mc250). what i need is for someone to name the kind of wire converter i'd need to connect this soundcard to my amp. or perhaps name a soundcard that would be more suited for my needs if you feel so inclined. i'm not worried about gaming dsp effects such as eax and all of that. i just want pure two channel for listening to media and watching the occasional movie. although i wouldn't mind a multichannel soundcard to use with my digital crossover plugin with foobar2000, but i haven't found any "professional" quality ones that were in a sane pricerange. thanks guys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tofu Posted May 21, 2005 Author Share Posted May 21, 2005 ah looks like two of these will do the trick http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=CTLG&product%5Fid=274-884 i'm still unsure why the soundcard has 3 i/o's.. in the specs it only says it has two. these connections confuse me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Mobley Posted May 22, 2005 Share Posted May 22, 2005 I don't see why you need any adapters? As long as it has in and out you good to go, and it does. These things are set up to be sort of a mixing board/switchbox/effects generator/sound file editor. hook your source or pre-amp to the input, run from the output to your amp. You can redirect output to the harddrive and burn CD's of the material. That's very nice piece of equipment, in a different category from the usual Soundblaster type stuff. I have an audiophile 2496 from the same company, I'm just getting started with it, lots to learn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted May 22, 2005 Share Posted May 22, 2005 Ok, one pair of those connectors are balanced outputs, which are the ones that you'll want to use. There is another pair that are balanced inputs. The other two are "direct hardware input monitoring via separate balanced 1/4 TRS monitor outputs." In other words, the last set of two would normally be connected directly to a pair of studio monitors for the sole purpose of listening to the input signal (for recording purposes)...the official balanced outputs would later be used for listening to the final mix down and normal audio playback. The other 2 bigger fatter ones are for midi and you'll never need to use them As far as the adapters that you plan to use, I would try going with the normal silver instead of the gold plated ones. The reason being that you want to use the same metal all the way through, otherwise you get into issues of the gold getting scratched off because it's a softer metal and your other connections will be using the silver connections. http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=CTLG&category%5Fname=CTLG%5F007%5F002%5F001%5F001&product%5Fid=274%2D320 (The price is decieving because it's $5/pair versus $4/each). Now for something completely different, I would recommend finding a USB or Firewire external sound card. The major reason being that it gets your DACs outside the nasty electrical environment inside your PC which can totally reduce noise and harshness...I have played around with a few sound cards where the external and internal cards were identical in all other ways and the external ones always sounded better. External cards allow you to run a longer USB/Firewire cable to the device and then have a shorter analog cable, which means less possibility of noise from the analog cable and all that. The other nice thing about external cards is that you don't need to rip your pc apart to switch them out and it's really easy to use them with other computers or even transfer them to new computers when you upgrade (most external cards are mac and pc compatible as well). Anyways, I'm just throwing all that out there as food for thought...I'm sure the card you're looking at will be more than adequate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted May 22, 2005 Share Posted May 22, 2005 ---------------- On 5/22/2005 1:21:48 AM Tom Mobley wrote: I don't see why you need any adapters? As long as it has in and out you good to go, and it does. These things are set up to be sort of a mixing board/switchbox/effects generator/sound file editor. hook your source or pre-amp to the input, run from the output to your amp. You can redirect output to the harddrive and burn CD's of the material. That's very nice piece of equipment, in a different category from the usual Soundblaster type stuff. I have an audiophile 2496 from the same company, I'm just getting started with it, lots to learn. ---------------- He needs to use adapters because his amplifier has RCA inputs...not 1/4" TRS which is the format the device uses (and most pro gear for that matter). Btw, just be sure that you tell the device that the output is unbalanced and not balanced that way the impedances line up properly. Unbalanced generally sounds louder, but you want to keep your amps input fully driven (bigger signal to noise ratio). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tofu Posted May 22, 2005 Author Share Posted May 22, 2005 thanks for the information guys. you really cleared things up for me. i was looking at this e-mu 0404 as well. its playback performance seems to be on par or (wishful thinking) maybe even better than the audiophile 192. it's also $50 cheaper because its recording section is rather "lacking." it uses unbalanced inputs so i wouldn't need to worry about impedence compatibility that dr.who mentioned. as for the external soundcards, do you have any in mind? recording really is not a priority for me, and if i can get the best possible playback from my computer it'd be great. i'm going to be using la scalas as my pc speakers, so i'm sure those will pick up noise quite easily. thanks again. edit: nevermind on the e-mu. i'll stick with my original choice. the audiophile 192. after reading up on the head-fi forums they claim the 0404 is plastic and forward sounding. that would probably mix quite terribly with la scalas. they described the 192 as smooth and warm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted May 22, 2005 Share Posted May 22, 2005 http://www.musiciansfriend.com/srs7/fg=101/g=rec/s=computer/search/detail/base_pid/701364/ ($200) I'd post a few more options but I gotta run... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvel Posted May 22, 2005 Share Posted May 22, 2005 The M-Audio card would be great. The impedance in running unbalanced isn't going to be a problem at all. USB audio devinces still tend to act up more than the PCI card ones do, and I have NO noise issues with my 2496 card inside my dual Athlon system. All you need is 1/4" phone to phono cables. Nice! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted May 22, 2005 Share Posted May 22, 2005 Noise issues tend to be hit or miss so there's always people going both ways because their only experience was whichever way they were defending (not to imply anything negative about anyone). I've had problems about 50% of the time with the few dozen internal cards I've worked with, but never had any problems with the external cards (maybe I got lucky with software issues?) I must confess I've never heard of anything negative about external cards so by default I always recommend going external because the worst case scenario is still good. Btw, noise isn't the only issue here...the insides of a pc are great for introducing jitter as well (which are time based issues when converting from digital to analog). Anyways, I don't mean to detract from the internal card and I'd totally say go for it if it does everything you want it to...If you end up not having problems, then all the better Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvel Posted May 22, 2005 Share Posted May 22, 2005 If I had the money right now (which I don't) I would be getting an external firewire card/box. But then, I would be using it to replace my ADAT (for sale). Second would be an external box, holding the DACs, connected to the PC through an internal card, a lightpipe being my first choice. Probably with an RME card. The RME cards are incredible, latency is very low... Lots of options for anyone, even just for playback. Marvel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tofu Posted May 22, 2005 Author Share Posted May 22, 2005 well thanks for the help. i think i'll take my chances with the internal card even though i like the physical volume adjustments on the external ones (i dont have a preamp). the external ones start becoming pricey and i'd feel bad spending over $200 on one when that can go toward a turntable or tube preamp, both of which i am in need of. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meuge Posted May 22, 2005 Share Posted May 22, 2005 Unfortunately you won't get any reasonably high quality output from a sound card, whose analog output stage is buried in interference from the PC switching power supply. I suggest getting a less expensive high quality sound card like the Chaintec AV-710 and running an optical cable into an outboard DAC. You can get an MSB Link III for $200-250 from Audiogon, and the Chaintech for $25. Trust me (I've thoroughly examined these options), what I suggest is a far better investment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tofu Posted May 22, 2005 Author Share Posted May 22, 2005 ---------------- On 5/22/2005 8:23:04 PM meuge wrote: Unfortunately you won't get any reasonably high quality output from a sound card, whose analog output stage is buried in interference from the PC switching power supply. I suggest getting a less expensive high quality sound card like the Chaintec AV-710 and running an optical cable into an outboard DAC. You can get an MSB Link III for $200-250 from Audiogon, and the Chaintech for $25. Trust me (I've thoroughly examined these options), what I suggest is a far better investment. ---------------- ah, you're killing my wallet! so will this $300 (leaving some $ buffer) investment really be worth it over using an internal soundcard? i suppose i can hold off and look into this if it's that much of a difference. is the main difference interference and "noise?" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meuge Posted May 22, 2005 Share Posted May 22, 2005 ---------------- On 5/22/2005 9:02:16 PM tofu wrote: so will this $300 (leaving some $ buffer) investment really be worth it over using an internal soundcard? i suppose i can hold off and look into this if it's that much of a difference. is the main difference interference and "noise?" ---------------- You're in NYC. Drop me an email and you can come by to listen to such a setup. I can run an analog line from my M-Audio and you can compare that to running an SPDIF into an external DAC. I assure you, the difference is not just audible, it is quite significant, and certainly worth the investment. Furthermore, because you're further partitioning the system, it'll ensure painless and inexpensive upgrades in the long run. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tofu Posted May 22, 2005 Author Share Posted May 22, 2005 i'll take your word for it. i suppose i can purchase this $25 chaintech card to tide me over until i'm ready to purchase an external dac. i read it has decent analog output as well. i just hope it has x64 driver support! does the spdif have bit perfect output giving higher end cards really no advantage in my situation? also (i know i can look this up in a few minutes, but i may as well ask) does it natively support 44.1khz or does it upsample to 48khz through the drivers this onboard sound i'm using now is really terrible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meuge Posted May 22, 2005 Share Posted May 22, 2005 ---------------- On 5/22/2005 10:09:17 PM tofu wrote: does the spdif have bit perfect output giving higher end cards really no advantage in my situation? also (i know i can look this up in a few minutes, but i may as well ask) does it natively support 44.1khz or does it upsample to 48khz through the drivers ---------------- SPDIF is not bit-perfect in any incarnation, because it's unidirectional. That's why USB and Firewire are a much better mode of connection. However, using a good optical cable, you'll get very close to bit perfect at short runs. The Chaintech uses the Envy24HT chip, which allows for handling of 44.1kHz data without upsampling. To ensure that DirectX does not interfere, use the Kernel-Streaming output mode of Foobar2000. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted May 23, 2005 Share Posted May 23, 2005 Bummer I'm not near new york because I'd very much like to hear what the MSB sounds like... Instinct tells me a USB/Firewire card would sound better, but I won't make a judgement before I hear one. It's just that I would expect better performance from one unit rather than two (from a bang for the buck perspective...2 units means 2 chassis and double the shipping material and twice the PR and research costs). But there's always those select few devices that way outpeform for their price (like klipsch). I've never had any experience with dedicated DACs so I can't comment on the differences. All I know is we use firewire everything in all the digital studios I've been in (though I have read about tube pre's being connected to DACs and all that). ART makes a two channel tube DAC for $260 (The DPS II Preamp) and I'm sure others do as well. I've never heard one before, but it might be interesting to try out for a tube lover. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvel Posted May 24, 2005 Share Posted May 24, 2005 ---------------- On 5/22/2005 8:23:04 PM meuge wrote: Unfortunately you won't get any reasonably high quality output from a sound card, whose analog output stage is buried in interference from the PC switching power supply. ---------------- The theory doesn't alway match up to what really happens. While the outboard DAC may, in fact, be better, there are some on this forum using internal sound cards with no complaints or interference with very clean audio. My analog audio output isn't buried in interference. Maybe you need a better PS. You really won't know about some of these until you actually try them. Even with the external ones. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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