jpm Posted June 8, 2005 Share Posted June 8, 2005 When all the dust finally settles, you'll find that a very good musical (not home theater) sub that will dive down in the 20s will give you the most bang for the buck. A REL Q201 gives all the punch needed, when needed, and nothing extra to "boom or color" the music. Very sweet w/ my 7s. I never hear the sub itself. The Q201 runs about $1,600, is under one foot square, plus a good interconnect. Google REL and check it out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3dzapper Posted June 8, 2005 Share Posted June 8, 2005 Steve, I'm sorry, I didn't mean to imply that the Scott itself was bright. I was refering to the lack of appearant bass you are now experiencing in the new room. Rick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted June 8, 2005 Share Posted June 8, 2005 "Does everyone have this urge to "upgrade" all the time?? Well, besides Dean I mean? ha ha.." Ha! It easy to suppress those urges now, I have to spend most of my extra money on parts. I do have my sights set on two upgrades right now: a pair of VRD monoblocks and AL's Trachorn. I still have my Klipschorns. There were no takers at my asking price, and since I was determined to not take a major beating, I decided to keep them. So, the Jubiliee project will have to wait until I trip into a money pit. Instead, I decided to do something interesting and completely gutted my K-horns, selling off the drivers and networks. They sat for a month with only K-33's in the cabinets while I played with my Heresys. Once I got those where I wanted them, I sold off my VAC 30/30, and bought a QSC PLX pro amp. With the money left over, I bought my daughter an Epiphone and my son a used drum kit. I then scraped up some cash and bought a nice set of BEC's T-35 clones (which sound freaking great btw), a pair of Atlas PD5-VH's, and a pair of K-55-M's from Maron Horonzak. I have a set of K-55-V's with the dual phasing plug in my Heresys -- so I was all set with drivers for playing around. I ended up sending a PD5-VH to Al K. for testing on his Trachorn (because we wanted to compare the response to the spring clipped and soldered versions of the K-55-V), and after he was finished -- I sold the pair to JC for his Cornscalas. So, while I'm contemplating what to do next with my Klipschorns, my oldest decided he wants to go solid state, and wants to sell his Quicksilvers. Since he basically wanted something similiar to the QSC, I told him it made more sense to just trade instead of dealing with the selling/shipping thing -- so he now has the QSC, and I have the Quicksilvers. He's happy, and I'm happy either way. Whatever money I have come into as of late, has been used to buy parts to build different networks, as well as to stock up on the parts I can't convince some make a difference. Right now, I'm running ALKs with about $500 worth of parts in them, and if I could do it again -- I would have spent more. They are without question providing the best sound I've heard out of my Klipschorns with the exception of the ESN's Al let me borrow. I actually can't decide if the jump is worth it -- it sounds that good. My ALKs don't sound like Al's ALKs. Gilbert stopped by for a nice visit last night. Great guy. He's running AK-3 Klipschorns and two ALK loaded vertical Cornwalls pulling center duty. He has ALK loaded Cornwalls in the rear, and the whole deal is being driven with some very nice Krell gear. After 20 minutes of listening, he wants to know if I can make his Klipschorns sound like mine. So much for the "Klipschorn can't sing or breathe in a small room" theory. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted June 8, 2005 Share Posted June 8, 2005 Man, talk about going off topic. Sorry about that. Some of the comments attempting to explain the lack of bass with these particular Klipschorns border on shameful. With any good amplifier delivering between 40 and 60 watts, and as Sheltie Dave once pointed out -- the bass will knock the snot out of your nose. Laid back? Give me a break! Move them to the short wall, and get some open space behind you. Sit your chair about 12 feet back, and put on your seat belt. If you do this with that 8 watter, forget the seat belt and grab a pillow instead, because you'll be asleep before the CD ends. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve Posted June 9, 2005 Author Share Posted June 9, 2005 Dean you always have some good advice..so with what you just stated, let me ask you this..with the higher powered amp, should I go SS or tubes? I really do like the way tubes sound, and if I have to get one with more soup, so be it. That's not a problem. But the short wall is..let me explain.. In my users manual, it says the KHorns should be placed on the long wall, with the ratio of the long wall vs. the short wall 1 to .618..that 13 feet back from the 21 feet the speakers are now apart..right now, my listening couch is moved about a foot and a half from the back wall to try to create the recommended listening position, because, as I have stated before, my room is approximately 21 x 15 feet. Now, if I understand you right, and I place my KHorns on the short wall, in true corners, 15 feet apart, I will be less than 10 feet in front of them, going by the recommended listening position. Isn't that like placing the 'horns in an itty bitty room?? I'm all for listening to advice, but I think you can see this would be a problem.(see footnote) But, on the other hand, I remember that "famous" (well, I was impressed) picture of Edster's zebrawood Khorns in false corners placed very close together. And he could toe them out. That said, and I did do the short wall, should I build false corners so I could shoot them down the room "longer"? What would that do to the imaging?? I like the imaging on the long wall, it's just that lack of bass!! Wouldn't a higher powered tube amp, as you suggested, be the better fix?? Sorry for all the questions, but I don't want to buy the RF7's if I don't need them (and unlike others, I WILL heed the advice here..)but am looking for the best all around solution. To answer some previous suggestions from all that responded.. I live in a town of 650 people..you can guess how many are (A) Klipsch owners and ( people who sit down to solely listen to music. I thought so..(A) a small number and ( none that I know of..there goes borrowing someone else's amp! The other prob is that I can't "demo" new gear, as everything has to come here by air, and stereo shop folk get very nervous about sending a high dollar unit to never never land..they might not get it back! Can't blame them for that! Again, if changing to a more high powered tube amp is the solution (Craig's VRDs?) then it's a no brainer. I can swap over to new crossovers down the road. I don't post often, but most of the time I really am looking for advice..so to all, thanx again. This forum is a great place to be. Regards Steve Dean, regarding the short wall..years ago I emailed Klipsch about the lack of bass (ongoing problem) and I got a response from one of their tech reps, suggesting what you said..i.e. placement on the short wall. I tried it, and it was the muddiest bass ever emitted from these things! Of course, I was following the listening position specs, no false corners etc. Anyway, I emailed them back with my findings, and told them what my manual said. Believe it or not, Bob Gassel, one of the moderators (very nice guy) said he hadn't seen that manual..and I just happened to have an extra copy..and mailed it to them. They were appreciative..but it struck me funny the one rep went against the manual's instructions, straight from PWK! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted June 9, 2005 Share Posted June 9, 2005 ya know, if it's the room causing your problems then no upstream upgrade is going to really fix the problem. To see if it's your room, walk around and listen at all sorts of locations (especially the opposite corners in the room). If you've got plenty of bass elsewhere (ie the corners) then you are in need of some acoustical treatment. I bet your problem could be solved with some very cheap curved masonite panels (something PWK talks about in the Dope from Hope). I could dig up the schenematic if you're interested. I think it cost me under $50 the last time I made 5 of them. You could always up the price a bit and put Roxul behind the curves (or normal fiber glass insulation). Michael Hurd and Artto would be the guys to contact about the Roxul stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve Posted June 9, 2005 Author Share Posted June 9, 2005 Hey Dr Who it's exactly as you describe it..the two corners on the low ceiling side have plenty of bass, but the 2 on the higher ceiling side are loaded with bass!! So if you find that schematic, please send it on! Thanx! Regards, Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted June 9, 2005 Share Posted June 9, 2005 I have a room similiar to yours, but I can't do long wall placement. So, I'm on the short wall, and yes, I did build false corners so I could swing them around and put myself on-axis with the horns. I don't always agree with 'Who', but he's no dummy either. I think the logical thing to do is to start with the advice that costs you least amount of money, and work your way up. Maybe I just got lucky over here, but I see no sense is arguing against a solid recommendation for working on potential problems with the room. I have the Dope From Hope that 'Who' is referring to, but it's on my computer at work. If no one posts it, I will tomorrow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve Posted June 9, 2005 Author Share Posted June 9, 2005 thanx Dean..and everyone.. Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skonopa Posted June 9, 2005 Share Posted June 9, 2005 ---------------- On 6/8/2005 6:22:29 AM Frzninvt wrote: I have run the system upwards of 130db easily with no distortion, breakup or artifacts the RF-7 would fall apart at those levels. ---------------- I say BULL$#!+ (flash yellow button!)! I've managed to run my system up to those levels myself and these RF-7s held together quite nicely. No distortion at all! The RF-7s are fine speakers and they will hold up very nicely to the Heritage! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wheelman Posted June 9, 2005 Share Posted June 9, 2005 This may sound lame to some, but NADs' latest offerings are great. Their not real expensive, and are pleasing to the ear with nice punch for rock. Good luck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael hurd Posted June 9, 2005 Share Posted June 9, 2005 The room, the ROOM. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KlipsDude Posted June 10, 2005 Share Posted June 10, 2005 xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx say BULL$#!+ (flash yellow button!)! I've managed to run my system up to those levels myself and these RF-7s held together quite nicely. No distortion at all! The RF-7s are fine speakers and they will hold up very nicely to the Heritage! xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx I agree with every word! Way true, these babies can get LOUD and sound great, your ears will give way long before these speakers will. They are totally awesome! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve Posted June 13, 2005 Author Share Posted June 13, 2005 I was listening late into the night last night, and why I didn't discover this before is beyond me. There is all sorts of bass at the low end of the sloped ceiling, but it is virtually DEAD at the high end. I even unplugged the crossover network from both KHorns to make sure the bass bin was working. They both were. So apparently, I need to do some sort of acoustic treatment to the high end, or complete my (1/2) false corners and shoot them down the room the long way, towards the low ceiling end of the room. Dean, Dr. Who..you guys ever come up with the "Dope from Hope" post? Thanx in advance! Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted June 13, 2005 Share Posted June 13, 2005 Ya, I got the pic right here ready for ya but the forum won't let me upload it...I suppose I could just email it to ya. But basically, all you need to do is get a piece of hardboard (normally known as masonite, kinda like how facial tissues are known as kleenex). It's the same stuff "peg board" is made out of, just no holes. Anyways, all you do is build a little frame that ends up bending the hardboard. It then acts mainly as a diffusor which for whatever reason also acts like a bass trap. It becomes even more effective when you put insulation behind it...Roxul might be a better alternative (and I think it's cheaper too). Another option would be to check out some of the products auralex has to offer: http://www.auralex.com I think they even provide a free consultation thing where you give them your room's specs as best you can and then they model your room and let you know what treatments they think you need. Of course they're gonna try and sell you to buy their product, but it's not like they're going to give you totally crap advice either (otherwise it would sound bad when you were done). You can let us know what they tell you and we can help you decide where to start. WAF tends to be the biggest issue when it comes to acoustics and there are plenty of guys around here that are really creative in making things look good (I wouldn't be one of them) I think this might be the link of what I was thinking of: http://www.auralex.com/pcf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve Posted June 14, 2005 Author Share Posted June 14, 2005 thanx for the links..I'l check 'em out! The WAF isn't a big thing for the music room..she says it's my room and I can do whatever I want to with it! I think that translates out to "they're outta the living room, thank goodness"! She does let me get whatever I want for the music room, so I have no complaints whatsoever! I count myself pretty lucky! Thanx again, Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted June 14, 2005 Share Posted June 14, 2005 btw, i would also do a search through the architectural forum as well...lots more stuff in there if you're patient (heck, that masonite diagram might even be buried in there somewhere). Specifically check out the thread: "artto's klipschorn room." He's got lots of pics of the masonite in action (due to a few friendly room nodes he actually gets good response down to 19Hz with his khorns!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve Posted June 14, 2005 Author Share Posted June 14, 2005 I'l do that..thanx Who! Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve Posted June 14, 2005 Author Share Posted June 14, 2005 I'll do that..thanx Who! Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edwinr Posted June 14, 2005 Share Posted June 14, 2005 Hi. If you are happy with your amplifier, and you don't want to stuff around with short wall placement etc, try a good quality sub woofer. Dial in the amount of bass you want, and away you go. The beauty of using a sub, is that you can switch it off when you want to, and you can help your SET amp where it's at it's weakest. The other solution is to upgrade your amplifier. Not all solid state sounds harsh. Just for fun, try the NAD 320BEE. This amp is cheap but will knock your socks off. But based on your comments, maybe you prefer tubes. If money is not too much of an issue, why not try VRD monoblocs and a good quality pre like the Peach? If not, how about an Audio Research VSi55 Integrated tube amp. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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