What Separates Do You Have

[nicholtl]

----------------

On 6/23/2005 9:45:34 AM Q-Man wrote:

Nicholti,

I ordered a C-1 yesterday, because of you guys on the Home Theater Guide.

Now I'll see if it sounds as good as everyone says it does. I also bought it because it is the only processor out there that has two channels that I can program to use for my front effect speakers.

Are you coming over to help me set it up?

----------------

Congrats!! I guess we finally convinced you, eh? Sure, I can offer some assistance, although I'm not sure if you live in LA.

I won't count my chickens before they're hatched, but my guess is you'll be mighty pleased with it's sonic performance.

[Shade]

Lexicon MC-1 pre, B&K 200.7 amp.

Why? Better sound & upgradability. I wanted the processing abilities of the Lexicon, and didn't have a ton of money for an amp. I was able to go with an Outlaw 7100 at first, and more recently upgraded to my B&K. In a couple more years when the MC-12 pre's come down in price, I can upgrade just the pre & keep the amp.

[MrMcGoo]

On 6/23/2005 11:11:44 AM MrMcGoo wrote:

The Sunfire claim to fame is that it doubles power output as the impedance drops in half.

----------------

Griff's reply:

So does every other amp that is capable of running at below 8 ohms. So what?

=========================

B&K, Sherbourn, Aragon and many other amps do not double the power output as impedance drops in half per the manufacturer's specifications. Nor do they list a 2 ohm specification, much less a one ohm specification. These brands' designs do not have the output devices or transformers to keep up. Sunfire's claims are clearly a bit exagerated, but they do perform well.

So what? If they cannot double, then voltage drops and frequency response suffers, that's what. Then bass can be muddy and so on.

Bill

[Q-Man]

----------------

Parasound HALO C1 and A51.

Q I hope you got your C1 from our forum buddy...

Regards,

Mike

I almost did, but I ordered it from a local dealer instead. This way if I need any help with furture updates, or set up issues I'll have someone near by.

[Q-Man]

On 6/23/2005 3:14:56 PM nicholtl wrote:

----------------

On 6/23/2005 9:45:34 AM Q-Man wrote:

Nicholti,

I ordered a C-1 yesterday, because of you guys on the Home Theater Guide.

Now I'll see if it sounds as good as everyone says it does. I also bought it because it is the only processor out there that has two channels that I can program to use for my front effect speakers.

Are you coming over to help me set it up?

----------------

Congrats!! I guess we finally convinced you, eh? Sure, I can offer some assistance, although I'm not sure if you live in LA.

I won't count my chickens before they're hatched, but my guess is you'll be mighty pleased with it's sonic performance.

----------------

I was kidding about coming over. I know that you live in California, and I'm in Florida. There is a chance that you will see me asking questions on the HTGuide forum. If so, I'll expect to hear from you .

I do use a PS Audio 4.7 Power Director. I'm just telling you this

since you seem to like some PS Audio stuff. I have it set up to turn on the equipment in a time delayed sequence.

[ScorpsFan]

Mine are listed below, I like the fact that you can change out amps or choose to turn on only what you want to for what you are doing at any particular time (HT or 2-Channel)

[j-malotky]

My component HT system is well documented on this forum over the years.

At the moment the analog audio starts with a Lexicon MC-1 processor. The front 3 and 2 side channels are driven by 5 separate mono McIntosh MC-250 amps. The rear 2 channels are driven by a sterio Mcintosh MC2105. The two SVS subs are driven by a sampson S1000.

Seprates are the way to go.

JM

[cjgeraci]

I agree - separates are the way to go. I run a Classe SSP-30, Mk II multi-channel prepro that has nice musicality (much like the Lexicon). I would love to get my hands on one of the latest models of Classe processors, but cannot justify that move at the present time. Noticeable improvements when moving to separates for me included more detail and separation (especially at higher volumes), a thicker sound and broader soundstage.

Also agree on the preference for separate amps vs. one unit (except for products like the Sherbourn). There have been noticeable differences between my multichannel solid state ("SS") amps and my two-channel SS amps for the reasons previously outlined. Also, having separate amps for your channels means you can play around with different combinations. Almost as entertaining as tube rolling on a rainy day.

Currently, I run different combinations of tube amps or other amps(SS or digital), depending on my moods and/or my willingness to experiment - led by a Marantz 8B (mains), Dynaco Mark III or NAD amp or Teac digital (center), and Rotel 1080 or Dynaco Stereo 70 (rears).

Carl.

[Griffinator]

----------------

On 6/23/2005 8:45:10 PM MrMcGoo wrote:

B&K, Sherbourn, Aragon and many other amps do not double the power output as impedance drops in half per the manufacturer's specifications. Nor do they list a 2 ohm specification, much less a one ohm specification. These brands' designs do not have the output devices or transformers to keep up. Sunfire's claims are clearly a bit exagerated, but they do perform well.

So what? If they cannot double, then voltage drops and frequency response suffers, that's what. Then bass can be muddy and so on.

Bill

----------------

Dude, Bob Carver has been setting up his amps to be stable at 1 Ohm since his company carried his namesake. So what? So why don't you own a bunch of his old M1500 amps, which drove stable monoblock configurations at 2,000 watts into 1 Ohm? Isn't that inherently superior to your current amplification? By your definition, it should be...

Oh, and all you tube lovers out there, better throw away your equipment and get some good, respectable Carver gear. It doesn't have the output devices or transformers to keep up with low-impedance loads, because Mr McGoo here says if they don't double power at 4 Ohms, they aren't good enough for your Klipsch speakers...

Keep talking, bro. I'm listening...

[MrMcGoo]

Griff,

Are you claiming that it is unimportant that an amp cannot accurately follow a speakers impedance curve? Inability to keep a fixed voltage output affects sound waves. It's as simple as Ohm's Law.

RF-7s have a minimum impedance of 2.8 ohms. The frequency at the minimum impedance requires over 3 times the current that 8 ohms would require to maintain a fixed voltage and accurately reproduce a sound wave, i.e., a transient.

I had a B&K that produced 140 watts at 8 ohms and 185 watts at 4 ohms. The Sunfire amps are much better all around.

There are many ways to get to the same place. The B&K Reference amps produce 200 watts at 8 ohms and produce 375 watts at 4 ohms. They have an excellent reputation with the RF-7s, but may not have as much clarity in the mid range as a Sunfire Signature, Levinson or Rotel 1090.

Long story short: Most speakers present impedances that vary as frequency varies. Amps that can follow the impedance curve usually sound better since thay do not clipp or have voltage dips.

Bill

[Bret_Salyer]

Quote:

Dude, Bob Carver has been setting up his amps to be stable at 1 Ohm since his company carried his namesake. So what? So why don't you own a bunch of his old M1500 amps, which drove stable monoblock configurations at 2,000 watts into 1 Ohm? Isn't that inherently superior to your current amplification? By your definition, it should be...

Oh, and all you tube lovers out there, better throw away your equipment and get some good, respectable Carver gear. It doesn't have the output devices or transformers to keep up with low-impedance loads, because Mr McGoo here says if they don't double power at 4 Ohms, they aren't good enough for your Klipsch speakers...

Keep talking, bro. I'm listening...

----------------

So what is your point? All I heard was sarcasm. Is power delivery not important? I'm new and shopping for an amp, please explain it to me.

Bret

[Strabo]

----------------

On 6/24/2005 3:05:39 PM Bret_Salyer wrote:

So what is your point? All I heard was sarcasm. Is power delivery not important? I'm new and shopping for an amp, please explain it to me.

Bret

----------------

Power has almost nothing to do with how an amp sounds. Unfortunately the marketing hype wattage wars lead people to believe otherwise.

You can have one great sounding amp that only puts out 10 watts, and another great sounding amp that puts out 1,000. The only thing the wattage gives you is more decibels. As to which one sounds better for your listening level is up to you.

Conversely, you can have one great sounding 10 watt amp and a screechy boat anchor that puts out 100 watts, and visa versa.

It's up to you to decide what sounds good to your ears.

[MrMcGoo]

Most solid sate amps sound the same to me, provided they do not hiss or clip and provided they can produce the needed current and voltage on demand. Tube amps are a very different creature; they do have a different sound to me.

Bill

[Sanman023]

for the home theater..i use the denon 5803 and denon power amps...

on the two channel side...the krell hts pre/pro (it has a very good two channel section) and krell ksa 250...(it heats up the room really quick..)

[boomer9911]

I'm using Marantz Reference SR18EX A\V Receiver, with 3 Marantz MA700 mono block amps(f&c), with Khorns(f),LaScala's(boxed), Hersey II's®, KLFC7©, Velodyne FSR18 sub. Unfortunately due to confined space at present, the MA700's are boxed, awesome mono amp, wish I had 3 more, ok more than 3, but my SR18EX does handle the load alone...

[boomer9911]

did you see that................

[Griffinator]

----------------

On 6/24/2005 7:45:44 PM MrMcGoo wrote:

Most solid sate amps sound the same to me, provided they do not hiss or clip and provided they can produce the needed current and voltage on demand. Tube amps are a very different creature; they do have a different sound to me.

Bill

----------------

Well, you're about the only one, then. I'll wager there is a pretty hefty majority of posters around here, myself included, that can

- hear the signature tone of a Carver-built amp a mile away

- can immediately distinguish between a McIntosh and, for example, an older Onkyo or Sansui

- would have no trouble identifying a preference in tonality when presented with two similarly built amplifiers from, say, B&K and Sunfire

While no one argues that "the perfect amplifier" would be one in which the power continuously doubled as the impedance halves, the necessity of this "perfect amplifier" is what is in question here, along with the real effect on sound quality.

So your Sunfire can deliver a stable 400WPC RMS into 4 ohms. And, probably (as most Carver-built amps do) it can also deliver 800WPC RMS into 2 ohms. Great.

But are you actually employing this power into your RF-7's?

No, you're not. Why? Because you'd be deaf within seconds. At 256WPC, your RF-7's would be dealing your eardrums a 126dB output signal. According to OSHA, sustained noise above 90-95dB can cause permanent damage. You telling me that you're running them that wide open? No wonder "most solid state amps sound the same" to you...

Considering that Sherbourn, B&K, Rotel, and the vast majority of other mid/high-end separates designers are capable of delivering those same 256wpc RMS loads at 4 ohms, your whole power-doubling theory falls flat on its face when you're comparing 200wpc amplifiers, which we all pretty much concur are the benchmark standard for home theater applications.

It'd be a completely different story, I'll concede, if we were comparing smaller amps. Power delivery at low impedance would be an issue if the amp were only delivering 50WPC into 8 ohms to begin with. I'm not, you're not, no one else around here is, and therefore the point is useless.

The only thing that stops an amp from delivering the theoretically perfect unlimited power doubling is its power supply. It has no bearing on the quality of sound eminating from the amplifier, unless the amplifier is an extremely low-watt design. Even then, the low-wattage design amplifiers (go talk to the 2-channel people about low-watt designs) use power supplies that are every bit as robust as the ones found in these mid/high-end solid state units, so they are closer to that theoretically perfect design than even your mighty Carver/Sunfire units, because they are load stable on the perfect line to below 1 Ohm...

PS: I spent a good 25 minutes on this one, specifically eliminating the sarcasm and backhand insults to the best of my ability. My apologies in advance if anything still here is construed as such.

[Griffinator]

Oh - and before the arguments fly about distance from the speakers, here's a little math for you.

The RF7 is rated at 102dB 1W/1M in an anechoic chamber. This equates to a real-world 107dB 1W/1M, accounting for room reflections, et al...

Mr McGoo is, by his own admission, running a 7-channel system. The two front speakers, running off this one amplifier, are delivering 110dB 1W/1M combined. I'm assuming that he's sitting a pretty standard 12 feet away from them, which knocks that total back down to a net of 98dB. If I consider the other 5 speakers to be contributing a mere 4dB combined to his listening position agregate, never mind the subwoofer, then we're right back on the path of 102dB, and can apply our power figures starting with the original 102dB.

Truth be told, if Mr McGoo is running his amplifiers (he uses a 2x200 and a 5x200) wide open enough to tap into that 400wpc he keeps touting, his actual total room exposure is probably exceeding 150dB. No one can handle that kind of sound pressure for any length of time without significant hearing damage. Human pain threshold for sound pressure exposure is 125dB...

[Frzninvt]

Very sensible and understandable post Griff! I found that running my big amps at 400W X 2 did not sound as good as when I ran them at 100W X 4, they sounded cleaner.

I just found it odd that when I went to the Sunfire website, the type of amplification and other information (ohm load stability, S/N Ratio, THD, Headroom) was absent from anywhere in the user manual.

If you want to read the most in depth user manual you have ever read check out the one for my DBX BXI's.

[MrMcGoo]

There is a very long thread on the AVS forum regarding whether or not different solid state amplfiers sound different. Suffice it to say that they are still beating the dead horse of double-blind testing etc. Many claims of audible differences are made, but few (none?) are proven in solid state amps being run in their linear range of operation.

If it's so easy to tell the difference in solid state amps, go collect the $10,000 prize for Clark's (?) challenge. People talk, but no one has pressed a sucessful challenge yet.

Next point: I had no trouble finding Sunfire's amp specs in the manuals with the exception of headroom. My two channel amp has a one ohm output listed on a time limited basis. The 5 channel amp lists 2 ohm output.

Next: I used to buy into the Klipsch are so sensitive theory that anything can drive them. With Khorns it is probably true, provided the amp quality is high. Paul Klipsch pointed out that the Khorn is an 8 ohm speaker in the mid bass frequencies. PWK knew that was an important fact.

The RF-7 is not an 8 ohm speaker in the bass frequencies. The minimum impedance of 2.8 ohms reported by Sound & Vision is a difficult load for most solid state amps. The limited (reliable?) information that I have read indicated the 7s run between 3 and 4 ohms in much of the bass frequencies.

In essence, my critics claim that impedances, physics and the linear range of operation of amps are not important with RF-7s because they are an "easy load." My view is that 2.8 ohms minimum is not easy.

I can (I think) tell the difference between the regular and more powerful Sunfire amps in the mid-range on the 7s. Others have made a similar claim.

Next: It is painfully obvious that all the power in most amps is not in constant use. My view is that when I am using 250 milliwatts RMS to watch a movie or listen to the 1812 Overture, it is useful to have lots of headroom, even if it is not in continuous use. Does anyone disagree????? Have you seen the clipping indicators on a 200 watt amp flash on 102 sensitivty Klipsch speakers on the 1812? Other members have observed this regularly.

The RF-7s are 99 db/1w/1m not 102 per Sound and Vision. The 102 is 2.83v/1m which is different when the impedance is not exactly 8 ohms. Sound and Vision rated them as a 6 ohm speakers. I think that they are closer to 4 ohms, but lack the testing gear to measure for myself.

Bill