Is a good soundstage hard to come by?

[Erukian]

I was checking out the latest Klipsch Heritage lineup (not the ones coming out next month). I was listening in a very good playback room, lots of sound deflecting/absorbing panels, the 10x30 room sounded like a 30x90 or even bigger, seriously. Almost no echo, almost like I was outside.

Anyways I spent literally 4-5 hours at the dealer checking out their stuff (yeah i'm the punk kid who goes to the local heritage dealer to just hear the stuff, not buy it) and one thing that i've never heard a speaker do is soundstage. Correctly that is. The owner had good amps, vintage McIntosh monoblocks and i brought in my vintage Yammi/HK and he had some some high end stuff from various generations of Bel Canto, oh and I brought my teac.

Firstly i'm convinced it's something that mostly ahs to do with the fidelity of the speakers. I've tried a pair of $300 Sennheisers and even with good crossfeed device, and the sound far far easier to pick out instruments in a classical peice.

What i'm going for is absolute precision. I want to get the point where i can say "3rd or 4th chair trumpet is a little flat" not just "one of the trumpets is off"

I know i'm asking for a lot here, and while the heritage speakers sound very dynamic (i guess is the word) their soundstage like pretty much every other high end speaker leaves me desiring more accuracy.

I want to hear the full depth of an orchestra and know how wide their laid out and not have a system color the soundstage to make it sound big *cough*Bose*cough*

I'd rather not have to resort to high-end headphones because i love sound coming at me vs going straight into my ears, give's a more realistc impression of being there if i close my eyes.

Am I the only person who wants this level of accuracy without having to sell some organs (no, not that one) to afford them?

[Allan Songer]

Do you like music?

I ask this because if you like picking out the single trumpet that it a bit flat that seems to me to be akin to proofreading Melville novels looking for printer's errors. Seems like you miss out on a lot . . .

But I wish you luck in your quest!!

[Parrot]

----------------

On 8/4/2005 7:28:25 PM Erukian wrote:

I want to get the point where i can say "3rd or 4th chair trumpet is a little flat" not just "one of the trumpets is off"

----------------

Can you do that in a symphony hall? I know I can't. I suppose a conductor can from his position, but that's not like the position of anyone in the audience.

[psg]

What you are asking for is something I've never tried (I don't listen to orchestras at home) and seemd almost impossible. It's far more than pulling the disappearing act, or having someone believe the center speaker is playing when it isn't.

[garymd]

There have been moments when I'm floored by the accuracy of the soundstage. The death scene in Man Of LaMancha is a good example. Everyone seems to be in the right spot on stage.

If the instrument that is intended to be front and center is actually front and center, that's all I can ask for. It's nice when depth is added to the mix (especially when listening to mono recordings) but what you're after is beyond what I look for in a system. Also, I don't know if it's even possible (too many variables). Kick back and enjoy the tunes!

[Erukian]

From the audience I can't tell at a live event, but more often than not, mic's are as close as the director is to the sound.

I guess it is sad that when I listen to a classical or jazz peice (because that's what I play in real life) that I tend to analytically rip it apart and look for weakness because what i've been trained to do in real life. But sometimes when i'm playing, i hit an emotional peak that when everything's going right, the solo's are tight, the timing is just on and everyone's in tune, that my arms get weak when holding up the trumpet from the sheer emotional surging.

So i'd say it depends on my mood -- I've been known to crank out rock music for a few songs at 90+ dB and just sing with the leader singer and feel the emotion in his words.

Before I got into hi-fi (from age 8-18 really) i'd use recordings to pick apart my weaknesses in my own playing abilities. Maybe it's because of this thought process that I sometimes am overly critical of a bad recording, but sometimes I absolutely love listening to old Armstrong records that sound like crap.

back to the topic, I think it's possible to make a complete 3d soundstage (maybe not on the z axis) but complete as in a more accurate playback of a recording.

I'd like to keep this a technical discussion please, no technical vs emotional enjoyment or any of that crap, please.

But then maybe I am the only person who find's speaker's soundstage generally lacking.

-Joe

[Daddy Dee]

I wonder if I've got the mental capacity to comprehend soundstage. I hear people talking about it, but don't know if I hear it or not.

Seriously, it may be something with a mental limitation on my part. I remember the frustrating experience of watching football films after games as a youngster. I never could "see" the "hole" just looked like lots of people to me.

Would be there a connection between a visual and aural limitation?

[Allan Songer]

I am going to bow out of this discussion not only because I think your are INDEED a hifi Ahab looking for the whiteness of the whale (I was going to write "wail" but didn't know how that would go over) but also because I really think that there's nobody here on the Klipsch Forum who can engage you on such an obviously elevated level. snark

[dragonfyr]

What you describe and desire has more to do with the engineering and micing of the players then the speakers! And you may be very disappointed to discover some of the techniques used! Especially when you move to jazz and rock! Your desire presumes that each step of the recording process accurately and correctly employed techniques designed to maintain the relative phase information of each of the component parts.

I wish that one could actually count on what you 'want'!!!

Additionally, the the ONLY micing technique that can accurately do that has been the ITE (In-the-ear microphony) mic method (AES Preprint 2874; Convention 87; September 1989) that maintains all of the relative phase and level information accurately as the recording is made from in the pressure zone of the ear (pinnae), requires NO encoding or decoding and and it results in recordings which result in your responding to the actual acoustic cues within the recording as if you are experiencing them (i.e., turning to answer when someone tapped the recorder on the shoulder and said 'hey' during the recording process), and the localization of stimuli is exactly as experienced by the recorder.

And 'surround sound' X.1 can only fantasize of ever being this accurate!

Unfortunately you desire and expect something that you will not generally find, despite rare and valiant efforts, and a technology about which many others are ignorant.

[WMcD]

Excuse me if I'm harsh here.

Yup, it does sound like you're the salesman's nightmare. Make demands on them without buying. Even if the salespeople are toads, this is a bit much.

I see you've stated the acoustics in their showroom are good and that you want precision caused by something else.

In my view, the soundstage you're looking for can only arise from some decent speakers, such as Klipsch, plus a grand amount of experimentation. This includes room geometry, acoustic treatment, and placement of speakers, and perhaps a center channel speaker.

Being harsh again, it seems that you're expecting some spec of amps or speakers to accomplish the good result. Those that have gone before have found to the contrary. The room and speaker placement are the factors which make sound staging possible.

Let me suggest a starting point. Take two ordinary stereo speakers, put them on stands out in in the room so that that you're at the third point of an equilateral triangle. You may find a good center image. Bass will suffer.

Then you'll have to experiment with the re arrangement of the speakers to take best advantange of the room and bass.

Gil

[Erukian]

You guy's make it seem like it's impossible. I do understand that if the recording equip is crap and the engineer wasn't trained properly that the recorded sound can obviously lose the information that i'm looking for. In some classical recordings this is obviously the case. But there are some excellent recordings which do contain all the information because I did hear it on the headphones, so it is there.

I know I can't afford any speaker capable of recreating a hyper-detailed soundstage, all I want to know is if such a speaker simply exists! That's my quest, not to break my wallet over owning it (yet!)

Gil, thanks for pointing out speaker placement, i've read maybe dozens of full articles on speaker placement and that was something i was working on when i was checking out the klipshorns. i'd adjust them about 5 degrees at a time (i measured) then ran back to the listening chair.

I am glad it wasn't torture for the owner, him and I were discussing speakers, amps, preamps, sources, music, recordings, etc. (he's a retired service tech who repaired lots of vintage gear) and since there were mostly no other customers all day.. I was at least upfront when i started testing out his stuff that I didn't have any money to buy anything that day.

Maybe this is my personal audio holy grail. That perfect soundstage that brings out the best of each recording. I won't be able to start on my quest for quite some time being a poor college student which prevents me from investing in all sorts of gear i drooled over at the hi-fi shop!

The center channel idea is definately something I should check out next time i'm out there, since the whole point of it from what I know back in the PWK days to today, was to enhance the depth of content in the middle of the stage.

-Joe

[leok]

With both of my systems soundstages are capable (some recordings better than others) of presenting stable right/left and front to rear positioning of sound sources. Recordings, using simple mic setups (1 for each of 3 channels in SACD Living Stereo/Presence, or simple 2-mic stereo recordings) of acoustic events do best because the room reverb helps to position sources, esp front to back. Although I can't pick out a single horn or violin (unless it s playing a solo line), the groups (1st violin, 2nd violin, various woodwinds, horns etc. are very well defined and positioned. I suspect this can be done with any Klipsch speaker if it is set up well and driven well do do so. This particular capability may not be everyone's goal.

My approach has been to continue to reduce low level distortion. With each system improvement the stage has become more stable and better defined.

Leo

[colterphoto1]

I appreciate your devotion to finely recorded music. However, adjusting Klipschorns 5 degrees at a time, when the speaker in engineered to be seated firmly in the corner of the room does show your inexperience, if I may say so.

Understand that quality takes time, patience, and money. Because Klipsch speakers are so detailed and effiecient, they can bring out the best/worst in other equipment in your audio chain and your source material. We are probably some of the pickiest audiophiles out there. Stick around and learn. Better yet, buy something and experiment. I might suggest you put leads out for a pair of vertical Cornwalls. Their soundstage is awesome, they do not demand corner placement. They prefer against the wide wall of your listening room, slightly in from the corners, toed in slightly to keep reflections off the side walls. WIth the mid horn vertical, they have a narrow 30 degree dispersion angle- a very narrow, but very sweet spot indeed. Good for imageing.

Good luck and good listening.

Michael

[Colin]

I am surprised to hear that you dont like the sound staging of the Klipsch, because I think their sound staging and imaging is among the best of most speaker designs! Of course, like cone loudspeakers, you have to get them away from the front and side walls.

Of the best systems I heard for sound staging was the Vince Christian system, which puts four small cone mid-range drivers at either end of long and narrow cabinets.

http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/0702/vincechristiane6c.htm

I have played stereo with the newbie salesperson, who are not busy making a sale, they often thank me after we try different combinations (sincere or not, it is nice).

[Parrot]

To answer your subject line, "a good soundstage" is not that "hard to come by."

However, in your post, when you say ***What i'm going for is absolute precision. I want to get the point where i can say "3rd or 4th chair trumpet is a little flat" not just "one of the trumpets is off"***--you're not going to be able to achieve that. As I hinted at in my first response, that is not attainable in a real-life situation; I think you're seeking hyper-reality. Hyper-reality is probably not the aim of a composer, conductor, orchestra, or recording engineer. They want the orchestra to be playing music together, and get a sound from 80 people or 100 people or whatever the number, not intending for someone listening to be focusing like a laser on all the discrete parts.

Even in a one-microphone recording of a symphony, I don't find it hard to be satisfied. Knowing where the musicians are seated in an orchestra, just let your mind take over and assign spaces to the players where they would naturally be. But again, this is by group, first violins, violas, etc., not individual members.

[scotbuck]

----------------

On 8/4/2005 7:28:25 PM Erukian wrote:

... What i'm going for is absolute precision. I want to get the point where i can say "3rd or 4th chair trumpet is a little flat" not just "one of the trumpets is off"...

----------------

Greetings,

I suspect that absolute precision is an elusive little bugger...

I've heard several B&W speakers that did a remarkable job of creating a hologram of instruments in space, yet to my ears the highs sounded fizzy and the bass sounded very extended yet quite bloated.

The Lowthers I used to use were remarkable at pinpointing left-to-right imaging -- provided one sat in the fairly narrow sweet spot. Andy while those speakers could really slam out some sound, they struggled with the delicacate material.

Even at live CSO performances at Orchestra Hall here in Chicago I had a subscription seat that, due to some trick acoustics, made the bass section sound like they were playing inside the wall -- perhaps some 20 feet to the right of where the musicians were standing on stage. (For cryin' out loud! )

The point is, I suspect that the only absolute precision to be found is in the aspiration rather than the realization. At any rate, I wish you the best of luck on your search!

Hope this helps...

Take care,

Scott

[ZAKO]

Ive recorded Symphony orchestras for 20 years. Using many mic technics. Sound stageing is a myth. The imageing as described by reviewers Is nothing more than blowing smoke. I have hundreds of photos from many recording lables. If you look closely most mics are on stands looking down from above. Mics pointing down on many bald heads. So where is the sound stage Deapth? No where. No so called looking deep onto the stage No so called space between the individuals. No heaving of the chest of the singer. Some recording made with Decca 3 mic tree also used close up sweetening mics. I know one popular RCA classicle recording using 32 mics. IT got raves for imaging & excellent sound stage. I talked to Pheiffer about that. He shrugged & said go figure. Some times you can fool even me... Ive used some of the best mics around But all have limitations. None are as good as you ears.

[IndyKlipschFan]

Be careful your not "over doing the sound/picture in your mind" with bad source material.

(7.1 system all La Scalas downstairs...Story below.)

I can put, for instance, the Diana Krall DVD, "Live in Paris" on, turn off the picture... everyone is just like you said, is EXACTLY where they are supposed to be in stereo. BUT, it feels like Dinana is coming out of the center speaker.... it is soo real you can even walk up to check it out and nope not on.. go sit down and wow... are you sure? As you go to hear it again in disbelief.

My point is, on this recording it is dead on where things are... Back "in the day" when sad to say we had 4-8 tacks to record... engineers took great pride in positioning on the final 2 tracks where things are. Listen to a Miles Davis jazz CD and marvel just how much material is either left or right....and yes sometimes int the middle too..BUT it SOUNDS wonderful compared to most of the over produced stuff out today..

My 2 cents..

[chuckears]

I have come close to the level of detail you are looking for, but it is very elusive, and does not happen on very many recordings.

The closest I have come was when I was using a $300 Sony 5-disc changer, connected to a McCormack TLC-1 preamp with Nordost Solar Winds, which was in turn connected to a McCormack DNA1-Deluxe (with Solar Winds), feeding my Klipsch Fortes with Kimber 4TC Speaker Cables with Postmaster Spades. I was running a tape-out from the preamp to a Hsu Bass Optimizer, to an NHT subwoofer amp, which was sending under-40 Hz material to my Hsu TN1220 cylinder sub.

With everything balanced to the best of my abilities, there were recordings where I could tell a definite depth to the soundstage, and also receive clues as to size of the recording venue; most of this detail, in my opinion, came not only from the transparancy of the preamp, cables, and amp, coupled with the ability of the Fortes to reproduce this detail; but also from the sub, which reproduced cleanly many of the subharmonic "room cues" necessary for bringing me to the performance.

There are, most assuredly, many other components and speakers capable of much greater detail and refinement, within the brands I mentioned and outside of them, as well. I had just found a synergy of componentry that, for a while, and in my listening space, was the best sound I had heard in my house.

I have since expanded the system to HT use, going with other brands, and returning to the McCormack amp and the Nordost cables, but I had to sacrifice a lot of that detail by using a HT processor instead of the McCormack preamp.

I have heard detail close to what you are describing in someone else's house; years ago, with an Australian brand speaker (2.1) system called Duntech; from what little I have heard of the Klipschorn, when it is properly set up, it is capable of putting you there in the sweetest spot imaginable.

There are just so many variables when you get into the high-end; to answer your question: I don't think that it is just the speakers that are going to do it for you... I think that Klipsch speakers are capable of the detail you are looking for, but the room set-up, the components, and the recordings themselves have to come together just right.

...and there is an emotional aspect to it all, your own responses to the music and the gear, that may not be measurable. This is where I suppose it might actually be a drawback in having heard a lot of live music, if you are expecting the same amount of detail clinically, and without taking into account the emotional response the music and musicians are communicating to you. When I had my system at the level I mentioned previously, there were recordings that would literally bring me to tears, because the soul of the music was allowed to shine through.

Anyone who denies that this exists, or is possible, is not going to understand half of what I am describing; it's like being in love - you have to feel it to understand...

[D-MAN]

A good soundstage seems to be a matter of the room (once you've got speakers "good enough") and electronics. Then the quality of the recording... there is alot in the way to achieving a resemblence of recording space and not have the listening space get in the way.

But the main thing to remember, is that it HAS to be on the recording in the first place! Then its a matter of getting it out into the listening space, and then there's the listening space and its enherent colorations and distortions. Being greedy for perfection is very expensive.

And the clincher is, you will never really know if it's right or not (were you actually there?)...

But a good soundstage is a very escapist thing, and allows for one to "be one with the music". It's a good thing to pursue.

DM