HOLLYWOOD BACK LOT

[Marvel]

Tom,

Is that the 210 without the wings on it? Cool!

Bruce

[TBrennan]

Bruce----Yup, a wingless 210 at Lima. And the famous Florida horny and TAD rebuilder PB.

[CONVERGENCE]

The 210 was ment to work with wings. This brings the frequency down to 40 Hz otherwise 80 Hz and provides additional bracing for strenght.

[Daddy Dee]

Convergence,

some great pics here. Thanks for the post.

[colterphoto1]

Indy, remember watching Midnight Movies at the old Eastwood Theatre on Shadeland? (Now a rock and roll hall). I remember them having those really big double bass horns in the rear of the cinema hanging overhead- wonder what on earth was up front?

M

[CONVERGENCE]

Hi.

There was a film in 1974 called Earthquake were 2 subs had to be added to the theatre showing

this film.

The film came in different versions as always. Some cinema's had to install 2 bass horn cabinet in the rear for lack of space behind the screen. Since this was temporarry also.

Please read review.

The 1974 theatrical release used "Sensurround", a subwoofer system to create the feeling of an earthquake. This was simply a set of large subwoofers designed to create infra-bass (felt but not heard).

Premiered on U.S. television in 1976, with additional footage and storylines added to lengthen the film in order to expand it over a two-night showing.

The latest Universal Home Video DVD (released May 9, 2006) features the original "Sensurround" audio track, duplicating the original theatrical "Sensurround" track, which generated low frequency, high-power sound waves which "shook" the theatre.

On an episode of Quantum Leap, Sam Beckett leaped in as one of the stuntmen on the film (footage from which was used). "Sam" is the man hanging from a piece of debris whom Sam Royce (Lorne Greene</a>'s character) attempts to save, but loses his grip and falls.

.................................................

[garyrc]

Convergence -- thanks for the post and all of the pics, great stuff!

The old Fox theater in San Francisco (torn down, despite protests, in about 1963) had what seemed to me to be even bigger Altecs -- could that be possible? As I remember they had 4 woofers for each channel, all horn loaded, with the supplementary port at the bottom, with big wings, and they looked to be about 20 to 25 feet high. Strangely, the sound was not as good, or as powerful, even with a variety of magnetic stereo soundtracks, as it was in the much smaller Coronet theater (now boarded up, to be converted to other use, despite burned out and feeble protests) in San Francisco, especially when the Coronet was running 6 channel stereo 70mm films like Ben-Hur, Around the World in 80 Days, Oklahoma!, Porgy and Bess, etc.

This leads me to ask, do you know what kind of speakers the Coronet and others equipped/leased by Mike Todd's Magna Theater Corp. to set up Todd-AO had? Do you know where I could look this up? There was a rumor that they were JBLs, but the rumor was not confirmed to my satisfaction. Maybe the difference (other than the greater number of operating channels in 70mm exhibition) was that the Coronet was a medium size theater, and the Fox was the biggest movie theater I've ever been in -- big enough to include many gilded halls and passageways, and a a tennis court hidden away somewhere! Perhaps the Fox was just too big to fill with bass-intense sound?

Also, I'm curious to know the kind of speakers and speaker design used in the many channel Fantasound installations (in a few cities)in Walt Disney's Fantasia. There is a good article in Scientific American (Peck, 1940?) about Fantasound, but I don't think they identified the speakers.

[colterphoto1]

Hi.

There was a film in 1974 called Earthquake were 2 subs had to be added to the theatre showing

this film.

The film came in different versions as always. Some cinema's had to install 2 bass horn cabinet in the rear for lack of space behind the screen. Since this was temporarry also.

Please read review.

The 1974 theatrical release used "Sensurround", a subwoofer system to create the feeling of an earthquake. This was simply a set of large subwoofers designed to create infra-bass (felt but not heard).

Premiered on U.S. television in 1976, with additional footage and storylines added to lengthen the film in order to expand it over a two-night showing.

The latest Universal Home Video DVD (released May 9, 2006) features the original "Sensurround" audio track, duplicating the original theatrical "Sensurround" track, which generated low frequency, high-power sound waves which "shook" the theatre.

On an episode of Quantum Leap, Sam Beckett leaped in as one of the stuntmen on the film (footage from which was used). "Sam" is the man hanging from a piece of debris whom Sam Royce (Lorne Greene</a>'s character) attempts to save, but loses his grip and falls.

.................................................

Wasn't it Cerwin Vega who provided the bass bins for the 'Sensurround' systems for that movie? That is supercool that they have rereleased the movie with that .1 track. I'd like to get it and see how my THX handles it!

[CONVERGENCE]

Hi Garyrc

I'm not familiar with west coast cinema's . One thing for sure when 70mm projectors Todd-A-Eo projectors were used untill mid 80"s . The Altec A2 speakers
were used because of the sheer size of the theatre.We did post production film translation and new releases using these speakers untill same period.

[CONVERGENCE]

Hi, Colterphoto

It's possible since this movie was a one time thing installations was rentall.

I saw the movie in a small city of 100 K in a cine plex in a shopping centre.

They had 2 JBL rear horn loaded speakers in the back on the floor.

Perhaps larger cities had the real subs in a few large theatre.

This was 1974 the projectionist at the time did not talk much about it

the movie lasted only 4 weeks.if I remember.

[garyrc]

In Oakland, California, a small theater in a mall was equipped for Earthquake with two very large theater black plywood horns that sat on the floor ... one below the screen (where the orchestra pit would be, had there been one), and one in the rear. For Midway, a similar set-up was installed in Theater 70, a bigger house. In both cases, the speakers were marked "Sensaround" and in fine print, "Cerwin Vega." An engineer from Cerwin Vega wrote an article in one of the magazines about the system.

The effect was powerful, but artificial sounding, somehow. It didn't hold a candle to the thunder, windstorm and brief earthquake during and after the crucifixion in Ben-Hur (1959) in original road show 70mm version (MGM Camera 65, which was really Ultra Panavision 70). In San Francisco, this film used the system installed by Magna (Mike Todd & Co) for Todd-A0 a few years earlier. It looks like this 6 channel stereo system may have used 5 Altec A2s behind the screen (see CONVERGENCE, above) plus surrounds on either side of the screen ..... much more convincing, and higher SPL, I'll bet.

[CONVERGENCE]

Hi,Garyrc

For large cities we were fortunate to get 2 brand new 70 mm equiped theatre in mid 60's early 70's .It was called place du Canada In Montreal and Wesmount Square. The sound was out of this world. Films like the sound of music etc... It was a great place and relaxing place to watch a movie.

Both theatre were equiped with 70mm and 35 mm and A2 speakers and Altec surround.That's why we were fortunate to see great movies there untill 1989 and later into late 1990's when both were closed .

The 70mm projectors are now at the Imperial which is an old restored palace.

see below Imperial theatre

Do you want to know what's behind the curtain at Radio City Music Hall?

[garyrc]

[From CONVERGENCE: Do you want to know what's behind the curtain at Radio City Music Hall?]

Of course!

Also, was the picture you posted of the three 210s behind a screen taken in a Cinerama theater? Cinemiracle? Todd-AO ? ______?

Do you have Altecs at home? Do you prefer them? Have you ever been able to duplicate the solid, spacious sound of a soundtrack associated with a 70mm film, shown in a big theater with big speakers in the home?

[CONVERGENCE]

Hi Garyrc

Concerning Radio City Music Hall .

The system is 7.1 ; 5 channels each with 4 low frequency cabinets and 3 HF horns and with 8 dual subs and 90 surround speakers; all JBL.

Concerning the picture with the A2 Altecs behind the screen with 2 Hf Horns on top.

This picture is from the cinerama dome in L.A." I saw 2 films in Cinerama in the 50"s". We had 1300 seater at the old Imperial which was a Cinerama in those days. The sound was incredible ,not doctored like today`s cinema`s.

I have Altec Duplex at home I prefer them to JBL or TAD components .I use them for stereo music only.I don't have a home theatre . I still prefer going to AMC and watch a movie there.THere are not enough dvd in HD or Blue Ray yet.

Dolby has come a long way but I don't think it will replace the sound tracks of a 70 mm Projector.What I would like to see is multiplexes with at least one 70mm theatre and Altec A2`s .This is now possible with Simplex and their dual 70mm 35mm projectors.I know Hollywood wan'ts to standerdize all these formats into one for economical reasons, I think there is a huge market for 70mm theatres in big cities.

The experience cannot be duplicated on anny other format.Take for example helicopter shots : only the big movie screen can reproduce the feeling and such spectacular views.

http://www.widescreenmuseum.com/widescreen/htwwwsound.htm

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[garyrc]

CONVERGENCE: I think there is a huge market for 70 mm theaters in big cities.

The experience cannot be duplicated on any other format.

I agree completely. The magnetic analog tracks on 70 mm prints were much warmer, richer, and less offensive (less "knife in the ear") than many (most?) digital tracks. Maybe if they recorded Dolby Digital and DTS a little more carefully, with care to never overrecord, most might be better, but I'd like to hear the two side by side: the best DTS or Dolby Digital v.s. 6 channel analog magnetic (as was used in 70 mm presentations), especially double system mag, with the 6 tracks running on a separate piece of full coat 35 mm film in sync with the 70 mm picture, something that was done a few glorious times in 70 mm presentations in San Francisco, as well as in Cinerama (which usually sounded a bit worse -- slightly harsh -- maybe it was something about our local Cinerama theater.

Someone may be wondering why we make such a fuss about 70 mm projection, at least about the visual aspects, when photographic film has improved so much that 35 mm now can have finer grain and higher resolution than 70 mm used to, and besides, there is now the option of digital images in theaters. The reasons: 1) 70 mm, with its much larger aperture in the projector gate, let a lot more light through than 35 mm, and carbon arc lamps were used for both 35 and 70, which made the projection of 2006 look dim indeed. The images sparkled, but were not washed out, particularly with the opportunity of more dye per degree of angle of vision in 70 mm 2) The resolution of film, particularly 70 mm prints, then and now, is potentially (with the right emulsion) far higher than digital projection. Lucas claims that the audience can't tell the difference, but I'll bet they can when sitting close to a big screen, with the director seeming to manipulate the arc of vision (especially with a curved screen). Sitting in one of the front rows for a 70 mm presentation of Grand Prix, or 2001; a Space Odyssey, is an experience that digital projection cannot equal, thus far. 3) The usual 70 mm aspect ratio (2.2:1) is more pleasant than 35 mm Panavison (2.35:1), IMO. There is slightly less need to scan, and one can usually look straight ahead, and let the director direct one's field of vision 4) Analog magnetic sound has not been equaled, IMO.

By comparison, IMAX is too dark, by far, too nearly square, and the speakers used are often too small and "wingless" to put as much power (SPL) into the theater. Domed presentations (often OMNIMAX) are too visually distorted ... the curved Todd-AO screens were pretty good (damn near perfect) from dead center, and much less distorted from the side than OMNIMAX dome projection can be from the front. Also, while IMAX can be wire sharp and very detailed, I saw an OMNIMAX dome presentation in Portland last month that was disgracefully blurry -- but the film grain was adequately in focus, so it was not a projector focus problem.

We may have excellent home theater set ups, but good 70 mm, in the "film buff seats" (first 15 or 20 rows) was much bigger on one's retina.

The New World (2006) may have been released in 70 mm in some cities. Anybody see (and hear!) it that way?

There are some new 70 mm processes out there. Here is one: http://www.superdimension70.com/

[CONVERGENCE]

Hi,

To understand what Tod AO and FOX used as speakers.

Please read this article which involved the following companies Westrex Lansing And Ampex.

http://www.audioheritage.org/html/history/jbl-pro/beginnings.htm

[garyrc]

Thanks, CONVERGENCE! The Lansing Heritage site was a good read.

There was actually a record store in Oakland -- Stairway to Music -- that used a JBL "scoop" for people to audition their Lps on! He had the "scoop" with two 154c woofers and a 375 with horn and lens mounted on it. Do I need to say that the man was a fanatic? Fanatic, but very helpful ... Gene had (has?) a photographic memory, and if you asked for a hard to find recording, chances were that he not only knew it, but knew its number, "Oh that would be Col 4018 -- I can get it for you!"

The three Todd-AO theaters I was familiar with, The Coronet, the Alexandria, and the Taravel, all had ever so much more bass than Gene's JBL "Scoop" would put out. Granted, Todd-A0 soundtracks didn't roll off the bass like Lp manufacturers were forced to, to prevent mistracking, and to get a full length classical piece on one disk, and granted, Todd-A0 had five channels behind the screen (and one routable surround), so there was probably some woofer synergy in reproducing bass, but I'm wondering if some Todd-AO theaters used a "Super Scoop" that wasn't mentioned in the Lansing heritage article?

[CONVERGENCE]

Hi Garyrc,

I think the superscoop were part of the 4250 series.Some were rear and others front loaded. I had a pair but they were short throw compared to an A-7 for example. Or had to be played loud to get to the rear of the theatre.

Most of these models ended up being used by rock groups instead.They still did not meet the SMPTE standard for picture movies.

The A-7 was used by early rock or country signer "Elvis Presley"by replacing the 416 by a 421 Woofer and 808-8B Driver with 511 horn.This model was more powerful but not SMPTE aproved.

We had to wait till the mid late 80's for JBL to replace the venerable VOTT. If you go a few post back you have the model by Ev And Altec next to each other.

[CONVERGENCE]

The three Todd-AO theaters I was familiar with, The Coronet, the Alexandria, and the Taravel, all had ever so much more bass than Gene's JBL "Scoop" would put out. Granted, Todd-A0 soundtracks didn't roll off the bass like Lp manufacturers were forced to, to prevent mistracking, and to get a full length classical piece on one disk, and granted, Todd-A0 had five channels behind the screen (and one routable surround), so there was probably some woofer synergy in reproducing bass, but I'm wondering if some Todd-AO theaters used a "Super Scoop" that wasn't mentioned in the Lansing heritage article?

Hi Garyrc

According to Steve Schell from the Lansing Group

He knows the fellow who took down the system in the Coronet and the Alexandria.

Quote"

I spoke today with the gentleman who removed the big Ampex systems from the theatres in San Francisco years ago. His name is Paul Mundt. He said that the woofers were installed in large bass horns with mouths 7' by 7'. In addition to the four 15" 375 pot woofers, each horn used a 10" mid bass driver and had an unusual phasing plug structure in the throat of the horn. A friend of his will be scanning and emailing to me some original Ampex literature on this horn, which was part of the Todd-AO system. I will post the images here when I receive them. I'm beginning to suspect that these 375 pot woofers may have been a special model produced by Ampex for Todd-AO.

Paul also mentioned that these systems used special high frequency horns consisting of what appeared to be modified Altec 1503 multicellulars. Each horn used two 288 drivers on a Y throat, oriented vertically instead of the usual horizontal arrangement. There was some sort of perforated metal screening installed in the horn throat as well.

Convergence, the two theatres were the Alexandria and the Cononet. I looked them up on the Cinema Treasures site and read that Mike Todd had personally supervised the installation of his system at the Alexandria in preparation for the debut of Oklahoma in September, 1956."

These Ampex woofer speakers were manufactured by Altec Lansing for Ampex According to The Altec unofficial site.

That clarifies the story of those theatres.

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=134747#post134747

post 29

[garyrc]

CONVERGENCE,

Thanks for the information!

I would be quite interested in seeing the Ampex literature that is being scanned on the horn that was part of the Todd-A0 system.

As I said, the 6 channel Todd-AO mag sound, especially at the Coronet for Around the World in 80 Days (1956), is the best sound I have ever heard in a theater, and the best sound of a big orchestra (114 pieces) period. Modern movie sound has not equaled it. When they made some changes at the Coronet to bring Star Wars (1977) in, (I know they at least installed subwoofers) the sound got worse -- a bit harsher, and less snap, and didn't sound as much like the orchestras in which I used to play.

I think there is one error on the Cinema Treasures site your friend saw. Oklahoma! played at the Coronet (I saw it there), not the Alexandria, and they added the short to precede it, The Miracle of Todd-AO. It is conceivable that they prepared the Alexandria for Oklahoma!, then changed their mind, but I doubt it. The Coronet was refurbished for Todd-AO and Oklahoma! and it was in the preferred Todd/Magna Theater Corporation configuration, with the seats going right down to the deeply curved screen, with no pit or stage in the way, so row number, for row number, the image was a lot bigger on people's retinas, and the stereo spread was greater.

The Alexandria was not equipped for Todd-AO until it just about had to be, when the Coronet was playing Around the World in 80 Days well into its second year, to big crowds, and there was no place to put the next Todd-A0 feature, South Pacific -- so they equipped it, but left the stage in the way, which meant that the picture was too small (from audience position), compared to the Coronet. The screen was also not as curved. When they started playing other 70mm processes at the Coronet, they left the curved curtains, but installed a smaller screen, that was not as curved, since the competing processes did not compensate for the curve. Very ill-advised, but the Coronet's screen --- relatively, on the retina -- was still much bigger that average.

Here are the earliest 70mm films each theater played, all with beautiful sparkling projection, and, for the most part, exemplary sound (I may have left out a few):

Coronet:

Oklahoma! (Todd-AO)

Around the World In 80 Days (1956) (Todd-AO)

Sleeping Beauty (Technirama-70, process lenses by Panavision))

Porgy and Bess (Todd-AO)

Ben-Hur (MGM Camera 65 -- a variation of Ultra Panavision 70)

Alexandria:

South Pacific (Todd-AO)

Exodus (Panavison-70?)

Cleopatra (Todd-A0)