Sonic Traits Of The Various Klipschorn Crossovers ?

[ka7niq]

Could someone please tell me the known sonic traits of the Various Crossovers used in the k Horns ?

I have AK 2's, and I am thoroughly confused.

I know I have the worst possible crossovers, and feel like a second class citizen, but I dont know what way to go ?

If I go to an AK 3, what will happen ?

Brighter, more foreward, etc ?

Or, if I drop "down" to a simple type A and please PWK and Dr Edgar, what type of sound do I get ?

I am using, and liking, so far,a TEAC TRI Path digital amp, and not the one everyone uses either.

Its 25 wpc, and I cant ever see me using really high power and EQ, etc.

My main objections to the Klipschorns sound is a woody resonant coloration that colors some male, and even some female voices.

The Belle Klipsch's I owned in early 80's had this same wooden sound, and I couldnt tolerate it.

I found La Scala's way too foreward and screechy.

Will someone please tell me what sound these stock Klipsch crossovers have so I can see what way to go ?

[Al Klappenberger]

To generalize first: All of the heritage series networks except the

AK-4 have no filter to limit the high extreme of the squawker's range.

They depend on the natural rolloff of the K55 driver. The squawker

receives power from 400 Hz up. The midrange level attenuated by a

transformer which casues the impedance seen by you amp to go as high as

30 Ohms or more at about 2000 Hz. The tweeter filters use a

gentle roll off for about 18 dB / octave in the AA, 6 db / octave in

the A. In later desings the filters were a much better designed

extreme-slope pole-zero design.

The network with the worst reputation is the "AL" of the LaScala.

The "A" is a very simple design that a lot of people like but will blow out tweeters easily.

The AK sereis is the better of the Khonrn networks.

I persobally don't like the new AK-4 for reasons I won't go into.

Al K.

[sunnysal]

Many like the type A, if you do not plan to use a high power amp (>30watts) in a big room at high volumes you should be fine with that.

I thought the AK-3 was a great sounding crossover.

The ALK crossover, which I currently use, took away some of that woody sound and extended the bass and treble a bit for me...

tony

[Kudret]

I've had very limited experience with AA, A and DHA crossovers. I am

running my Khorns with 2A3 SET and PP amps. In my setup, I would

characterize AAs as laid back and the least detailed of the three. Type

As are more forward sounding than AAs, and produce nice and warm vocals

(but the bass is not as tight as I'd like it to be). DHAs are the most

detailed of the three; have tighter bass, detailed treble,

etc. - qualities that I appreciate with my low powered tube amps.

Kudret

[JohnA]

Kudret,

I think the differences you have described between the A and AA are

partly due to the condition of the crossovers you had in particular.

The only difference between the Type A and Type AA is the tweeter

filter. The Type AA has a steep roll-off of about 21 dB/octave and a

pair of diodes that make it hashy if the tweeters are driven hard.

That tweeter filter is lossy, too, accounting for the laid-back sound

compared to the Type A and DHA crossovers.

The DHA is a pretty conventional design that rolls off the squawker as

the tweeter rolls in. It is quite similar to the Type A (that

inspired

it), otherwise. It was intended for use with tube amps, but

"brother"

ultimately went SS. If it has a trick, it is the symetrical

filter slopes beween all of the drivers. In the distant past, I

read something about needing the slopes to be the same so the reactive

power balanced or maybe it was phase shift. There are too many

cobwebs back there anymore.

As for other networks sound, the Type AL has a complicated squawker filter that tends to howl somewhere

in the range of a French Horn, or about the 400 Hz crossover point, as

best as my ears can determine.

There is not enough difference between the Type AK-2 and AK-3 to bother

changing. The schematic of the Type AK looks pretty good, but

I've not heard one. If I had an AK-2, I'd replace the caps with

film and foil caps of the same value and call it good.

[sunnysal]

"If I had an AK-2, I'd replace the caps with film and foil caps of the same value and call it good."

which is how we got started, that is ABSOLUTELY the first thing to do. upgrade caps and coils...only change design if you are still unhappy.

regards, tony

[Al Klappenberger]

Guys,

John pointed out something that I have mentioned before but not in

terms of dB / octave about the AA tweeter filter. Notice he said 21 dB

/ octave. True "Butterworth" response is 6 dB / octave / element. A 3rd

order filter should then have 18 dB / octave slopes! The filter was

designed using outmoded "constand-K" or image parameter methods. It is

also a doubly terminated filter which is WRONG for a crossover network.

This is one of the reasons it's lossey. This is also why I mentioned

that the tweeter filters of the "AK" sereis networks are a better

design. They are singly-terminated like they should be!

Al K.

[tofu]

you guys REALLY make the AL seem terrible! []

[djk]

It may have measured better than the AA, but it was not in the same class for sound quality. They also ate tweeters if pushed.

[DrWho]

Could someone please tell me the known sonic traits of the Various Crossovers used in the k Horns ?

I have AK 2's, and I am thoroughly confused.

I know I have the worst possible crossovers, and feel like a second class citizen, but I dont know what way to go ?

If I go to an AK 3, what will happen ?

Brighter, more foreward, etc ?

Or, if I drop "down" to a simple type A and please PWK and Dr Edgar, what type of sound do I get ?

I am using, and liking, so far,a TEAC TRI Path digital amp, and not the one everyone uses either.

Its 25 wpc, and I cant ever see me using really high power and EQ, etc.

My main objections to the Klipschorns sound is a woody resonant coloration that colors some male, and even some female voices.

The Belle Klipsch's I owned in early 80's had this same wooden sound, and I couldnt tolerate it.

I found La Scala's way too foreward and screechy.

Will someone please tell me what sound these stock Klipsch crossovers have so I can see what way to go ?

Sounds like you need cornwalls. I don't like the tubby woodiness in the

bass horns either and also find the lascalas to be unbearable and very

fatiguing. You might also look into Chorus II's (similar to the

cornwall but a tractrix squaker and rear passive radiator) - seems

there's been a few floating around for sale lately.

You might also consider implementing some digital control over your

system...at least bi-amp and introduce some time-delay correction with

an active crossover (it'd prob cost near the same as getting new

crossovers too).

[ka7niq]

Thanks for your response.

I have considered getting a digital electronic crossover for the Klipschorns,, but I am scared of noise!

Here is my plan, at this moment.

I am going to try digital EQ on them,

I was told, and seen PWK demo Klipschorns at the Detroit Audio Show at Cobo Hall back years ago.

If I remember, he was using McIntosh amp/preamp with equalizer.

Perhaps he really intended for his speakers to use EQ ?

This is my next move, but I really hear this woody sound, and I dont like it.

I am not sure, at this point, that I am going to stay with the Klipschorns.

Some Forte 's , the originals just arrived, and I wanna hear them too, although they are dinky little things.

Plus, i miss the 3 dimensional imaging of the CF 4's.

I honestly would have to say, at this stage of the game, I am not absolutely blown away with the K's.

I like their liveliness, and fast bass, and efficiency, and low distortion.

Lets see what happens when i hit em with EQ ?

[sunnysal]

k-horns are a love´em or hate´em kind of thing...I hope you can find a way to mold the sound to your taste, if not sell them and find something you like better...speakers are too important an item to "settlle" for...tony

[ka7niq]

I have decided to sell them Sal !

I will place them On Audiogon, and perhaps EBay ?

I have some physcial problem with them, one being they are wider apart then how far away I am, and my corners have molding right down the center of the corner making a seal impsossible.

Hey, I gave em a try, now its time to send them on their way!

There arent classifieds on this forum, are there ?

[DrWho]

It's a trend on the forum to offer things here before going to audiogon or ebay - a lot of good deals get passed between forum members and it's a really cool thing. All you would have to do is start a thread titled "FS: Khorns." Heck, I bet you'd easily find someone willing to do a speaker trade too (perhaps get a pair of cornwalls + cash). Give it some time and great deals are always coming up.

[ka7niq]

That would work !

I have some old Forte's here right now, and they are little songbirds, imaging all over the place!

I would really like some Cornwall 2's !

Or some old Cf 4;s too ?

I think I am going to do that!

[DrWho]

well if you like the fortes....the cornwall is the same thing, but the sound is so much bigger (dunno how to quantify that though). But that's why I love klipsch - they're usually full of big clear sound.

[Mick Bell]

KA7NIQ:

I just replace the AK-3 crossovers in my Khorns with ALK's Extreme Slope crossovers. The difference is astounding! Much improved HF clarity and bass definition and GREATLY improved imaging with much wider soundstage. PLUS, you have the ability to select levels of attenuation for squaker and tweeter.

Mick

[ka7niq]

Unfortunately, there is nothing the ALK, or any other crossovers can do for me.

My problem is the speakers are too wide apart, and my corners do not allow a seal!

They will never work here, so I have said "Goodbye"

I am enjoying the little Klipsch Forte's right now, until I find a set of Cornwall 2's.