Al Klappenberger Posted October 15, 2005 Share Posted October 15, 2005 Willy, Congratulations! You have just been introduced to the first step to the crossover network science staircase. It is actually a simplified version of my "Universal replacement" network Dean and I call the "Super AA". It features include a more constant load impedance to the amp. It only goes up to about 14 Ohms in the midrange compared to about 30 Ohms for the AA and gives you the benefit of much better quality caps. It also directs the high frequency energey that the AA wasts in the squawker back to the tweter where it belongs! Here is the second step. This one uses quality caps and low loss inductors plus a fully constant impedance resistive load to the amp. It's my "Universal upgrade" network. Step 3 is the extreme-slope network that sees to it that only a single driver makes each sound. That removes driver interferance that casues all sort of bad things to happen! But we can introduce you to that idea later! If you would like to have a chance to hear stage two, I have a set of used Universal networks here that were traded in on an extreme-slope set that I could loan you. In fact, I'm pretty sure they are the exact set shown in the picture. Maybe Dean might consider using the ones you have as part of his "road show" and I will use this set in the same way. My set can follow your set from one listner to the next. What do you think of that idea Dean? Al K. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Klappenberger Posted October 15, 2005 Share Posted October 15, 2005 Dean, I just looked more carefully at the pictures of the networks you did for Willy. They are not the "Super AA" after all, are they? I only see one inductor. Aren't they just AA networks with better caps? Wow! If that's the case, somebody is in line for a real surprise when he hears a modern design! Al K. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Klappenberger Posted October 15, 2005 Share Posted October 15, 2005 Willy, Actually, Here's the complete upgrade staircase for the Heritage series as I see it: 1-A new AA or A clone network built from scratch using motor start caps and "original spec" inductors. 2-Your origial network with top quality film and foil polypropylene caps replacing the old paper and oil caps. 3-The "Super AA" from Dean. 4-My Universal upgrade for the "A series networks" 5-The extreme-slope networks. Here's the extreme-slope set made for the Belle. Al K. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted October 15, 2005 Share Posted October 15, 2005 Al -- Willy has the tweeter circuit of the Super AA, but the squawker section is straight up stock. I had to keep things somewhat apples to apples since I was primarily demonstrating the lower performance level associated with the old cans. The main thing I was trying to accomplish here was simply an attempt to win over a skeptic. By removing money from the equation and encouraging Willy to come back and post comments (whether positive or negative) about the experience -- readers are more likely to put his comments within an objective framework. On the surface it appears that I'm doing this really nice thing for someone, but I think most realize the "payback" I receive comes in the form of potential sales from those who are on the fence with this. If I did anything "nice", it was the work related to asthetics as I simply can't bring myself to sending something out that looks like it was hacked together. I did it one time, and thankfully I was able to get those things off the street (the Heresy networks I just bought back). Though not related to asthetics, I always do away with the crappy method Klipsch used to bring everything back to common. Doing that right is the most time consuming part of the build, but it's too important not to do it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tofu Posted October 15, 2005 Share Posted October 15, 2005 Al, i've always been confused by your extreme slope network. From what i've read, i've been given the impression that they only are supposed to be used if you a) upgraded your squawker or run your setup two way (which would also mean you changed the squawker). Is there any way to integrate them into a completely stock la scala without needing to change the midrange and tweeter horns/drivers? i also see there are two "boards" for each speaker, and according to what i understand from your DIY page (unless it was recently updated), there is one schematic for each "board" and you must choose a certain combo depending on which midrange upgrade you used, but there doesn't seem to be a combo for a stock la scala. this also confuses me, but i won't ask you to get into that in this thread, as it's probably a long explaination. thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Klappenberger Posted October 15, 2005 Share Posted October 15, 2005 Dean, Ok.. I see. The improved tweeter filter values do a lot for the network. Besides the better quality caps, the filter is no longer singly-terminated. It's now the proper type of filter that is really intended to work from a voltage source like an audio power amp. I suppose that puts it at step 1.5 on the staircase! It's better than a re-caped AA but not quite as good as the "Super AA". Al K. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Klappenberger Posted October 15, 2005 Share Posted October 15, 2005 Tofu, No it's a simple answer. No upgrades are needed to use the extreme-slope networks. They are compatible with almost any drivers and the stock Klipsch speakers. They are specific to the type of speaker though. The ES400T needs to used only on the Khorn. The others will work on the Belle or LaScala. The only other complication is IF you are using the Altrec 811b horn you need the ES700 because that horn won't go any lower. The ES5800 tweeter network will work on any of the Heritage speakers too. I simply put it on a seperate board so that the low frequency crossover (like the ES600T) can be used 2-way if you have a better midrange (full range) driver like the Altek 902. In that case, you don't need the ES5800 at all becasue you have no tweeter! That's it! Willy, I like your cat! My little buddy Max says hi! Al K. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunburnwilly Posted October 15, 2005 Author Share Posted October 15, 2005 Al , Thanx for your imput . The first thread I saw when I came to the forum was your Trachorn mod for the Belles . Man , that realy got the old grey matter fired up ! Dean , to be honest , a network upgrade was in the cards when I first got my Belles . Your offer just got me there sooner than expected , Thanks ! Al , those extreme slope networks are very intriguing , especialy since you explained them in a way that even I could understand ! Do you reccomend going with the extreme slope networks before the trachorn mod ? Thanks Guys Willly P. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tofu Posted October 15, 2005 Share Posted October 15, 2005 oh, thank you very much for clearing that up. i may attempt to put together these extreme slope networks for my la scalas in that case. i know if i don't have the "best," the thought of upgrading will always be lingering in the back of my mind. but that of course can be thwarted after i price out the parts required for said networks. i have a bad habit of starting somewhere, then slowly working my way up the price chain once i do more research. first i was just going to purchase pre-built aa's, then i pondered the thought of making your universal networks, now i'm stuck contemplating building the ES crossovers... when does it end? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted October 15, 2005 Share Posted October 15, 2005 Do you reccomend going with the extreme slope networks before the trachorn mod ?Hee hee, I'm glad he didn't ask me that question. 1-A new AA or A clone network built from scratch using motor start caps and "original spec" inductors.2-Your original network with top quality film and foil polypropylene caps replacing the old paper and oil caps.3-The "Super AA" from Dean.4-My Universal upgrade for the "A series networks"5-The extreme-slope networks.Boy, I wish it was that easy, but you know what I think! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunburnwilly Posted October 15, 2005 Author Share Posted October 15, 2005 Dean, Ok.. I see. The improved tweeter filter values do a lot for the network. Besides the better quality caps, the filter is no longer singly-terminated. It's now the proper type of filter that is really intended to work from a voltage source like an audio power amp. I suppose that puts it at step 1.5 on the staircase! It's better than a re-caped AA but not quite as good as the "Super AA". Al K. Uh Oh , It looks as though I've been caught midstep ! " I don't know how long I will be able to maintain this position ! " Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BEC Posted October 15, 2005 Share Posted October 15, 2005 1-A new AA or A clone network built from scratch using motor start caps and "original spec" inductors. 2-Your original network with top quality film and foil polypropylene caps replacing the old paper and oil caps. 3-The "Super AA" from Dean. 4-My Universal upgrade for the "A series networks" 5-The extreme-slope networks. I like that list. #1 is considered the best. Right? Bob Crites Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted October 15, 2005 Share Posted October 15, 2005 Yeah, but then you'd have to start using Motor start caps instead of Motor Runs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Klappenberger Posted October 15, 2005 Share Posted October 15, 2005 Tofu, The question of what is the biger bang for the buck, the network upgrade or the Trachorns, is one I think open for debate! I'm not sure. I am beginning to think that maybe the Trachorns will make the bigest improvement. It's hard for me to make the judgment because I have slowly upgraded my netwroks in steps as I developed them. Even the horn changes in my Belles went in slow increments. First I went with Altec 511b, then 811b and finally the Trachonrs. If I had to point to the bigest "WOW" it was when I first went to the 511 horns. The 811 was just as good crossed at 700 Hz. The Trachorn is better yet. The other big improvement was the extreme-slope concept. The sound stage widened noticable and the sweet spot went away. A smearing sound I had lived with for years also went away. Which is the biger improvement? It's hard to say! Dean: You have used my ES-Khorn set for a while and you have the Trachonrs now. What do you think? Al K. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted October 15, 2005 Share Posted October 15, 2005 The Trachorn, hands down without question. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted October 15, 2005 Share Posted October 15, 2005 The Trachorn, hands down without question. Now isn't that interesting...... I could of swore crossovers fixed everything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Klappenberger Posted October 15, 2005 Share Posted October 15, 2005 Dean, You didn't have to be that emphatic![] Al K. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted October 15, 2005 Share Posted October 15, 2005 Now isn't that interesting...... I could of swore crossovers fixed everything. I spend a lot time walking alone around here. Bob doesn't hear any difference between good caps, and Al doesn't believe me when I tell him the Trachorn sounds fantastic without a bandpass filter. The stock narrow throat horns definitely sound better if you squelch their response at the upper end, so yeah -- one of the newer filters fixes quite a bit with what is wrong in the sound of the midrange, and the speaker can be pushed much harder without going completely harsh on you. With any of the new filters I have very little trouble enjoying the K-401, but there is still a limit as to what it can do without pinching up. The Trachorn OTOH can be run wide open, and it never sounds congested or constricted -- even at the most insane volume levels. It's interesting to me that I'm never asked what I run for a network. Since going to the Beyma and Trachorn I run the same exact filter I just built for Willy. Now, I do run a second autoformer for the Beyma (attenuated 3dB using a 20ohm swamping resistor), and went nutty on the parts quality -- but it's the same circuit: An ever so slightly modified Type AA. It's the Trachorn's performance that affords me the luxury of doing it that way. I'm sure my smallish room and the fact that I'm only driving with 60 wpc is a contributing factor as well, and it's likely that if I were in a much larger room with some serious power that I would have to make a network change. Right now however, I'm so happy with the sound that I just don't feel compelled to mess with it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Speedball Posted October 15, 2005 Share Posted October 15, 2005 The Trachorn, hands down without question. Now isn't that interesting...... I could of swore crossovers fixed everything. They Do...! 1. The speakers sound better. 2. I feel better because of the great new and improved sound. 3. The wife is happy because I'm happy. 4. Well, maybe not everything but it's a good start. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted October 15, 2005 Share Posted October 15, 2005 Now isn't that interesting...... I could of swore crossovers fixed everything. I spend a lot time walking alone around here. Bob doesn't hear any difference between good caps, and Al doesn't believe me when I tell him the Trachorn sounds fantastic without a bandpass filter. The stock narrow throat horns definitely sound better if you squelch their response at the upper end, so yeah -- one of the newer filters fixes quite a bit with what is wrong in the sound of the midrange, and the speaker can be pushed much harder without going completely harsh on you. With any of the new filters I have very little trouble enjoying the K-401, but there is still a limit as to what it can do without pinching up. The Trachorn OTOH can be run wide open, and it never sounds congested or constricted -- even at the most insane volume levels. It's interesting to me that I'm never asked what I run for a network. Since going to the Beyma and Trachorn I run the same exact filter I just built for Willy. Now, I do run a second autoformer for the Beyma (attenuated 3dB using a 20ohm swamping resistor), and went nutty on the parts quality -- but it's the same circuit: An ever so slightly modified Type AA. It's the Trachorn's performance that affords me the luxury of doing it that way. I'm sure my smallish room and the fact that I'm only driving with 60 wpc is a contributing factor as well, and it's likely that if I were in a much larger room with some serious power that I would have to make a network change. Right now however, I'm so happy with the sound that I just don't feel compelled to mess with it! Geezzz Dean is this a carrying over from another thread. It was a joke dude no need for the teacher like educational response[] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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