nuclearay Posted October 15, 2005 Share Posted October 15, 2005 After lurking in forums for the last two years I should know this but I can't seem to put my finger on the answer. What would/should be the difference in picture quality when I am watching a movie on Shotime or HBO in high def (1080i for me) vs. the same movie through my DVD player (480p). I haven't been able to find a movie I own and A/B compare it up against what has been playing lately. [8-)] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.4knee Posted October 15, 2005 Share Posted October 15, 2005 The 1080i should be crisper, cleaner, more detailed and almost appear to have depth, 480p picture looks great the 1080i looks like you are there. Now you may not notice it as much for a movie that is upconverted by your cable/satelite carrier, but watch you most detailed movie dvd then watch a live sporting event broadcast in HD. The difference is very evident to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nuclearay Posted October 15, 2005 Author Share Posted October 15, 2005 All of the live stuff blows me a way. I have been cruising the Voom channels quite a bit -- hang gliding in yosemite, cruising the canals of venice, watchmaking in Switzerland, and football games on the other channels. I couldn't imagine a more realistic picture (at least until the next generation of equipment comes out). But the things that were shot on film and then upconverted I'm not seeing much improvement over my DVD player. Maybe my eyes aren't able to notice (or trained to notice) the differences. Sort of the reason I won't spend thousands of dollars on speaker wire or power cords: I just don't think my sensory perception will be able to tell a difference. One of the first movies we watched was Shark Tale on HBO-hd. While I was impressed, I remember the "wow" factor as not being any higher than, say, when I watched "The Incredibles" on my DVD player. Its all good though. [] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrMcGoo Posted October 15, 2005 Share Posted October 15, 2005 The quality of current DVDs is highly variable. Current technology uses compression that might average anywhere from 5 Mbps to 8 Mbps. The higher bit rate DVDs usually look better than standard DVDs. Superbit and THX DVDs have the higher bit rate and can take on a three dimension look. True HD is a bit better for movies, but is dependent upon the quality of the master the HD movie is made from. HD DVD and Blu-Ray DVDs are headed our way soon. I suspect that it will take many years for HD DVDs to fully replace the current standard. Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragonfyr Posted October 15, 2005 Share Posted October 15, 2005 For an excellent comparison that focuses on the format and not the conversion technology, check out: http://alvyray.com/DigitalTV/Naming_Proposal.htmwith a more general comprehensive HDTV review available at:http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,1558,1573979,00.aspMoral: Go with 720p Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael hurd Posted October 15, 2005 Share Posted October 15, 2005 Depends. If you have a display device that is native 1080, then you have to convert 720p. In that case, you may get a cleaner picture by using 1080. ( assuming you have that option in a satellite box ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rcarlton Posted October 15, 2005 Share Posted October 15, 2005 About 7 months ago I had the opportunity to compare Gladiator on DVD to a HDNET broadcast in 1080i (might have been TBS around the time of the NCAA basketball finals). I was hard pressed to tell the difference. I swapped back and forth between the 480p (Denon DVD-2200) and the broadcast version. It sounded different (the broadcast)...less dynamic maybe, not drastic. Picture quality was very close, in fact my friends could not tell which was which (I knew since the DVD had the small black bars and the broadcast version was 16:9). I saw some subtle "twinkling" of color in the dark scenes backgrounds. I was using a Mitsubishi WD-62725. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nuclearay Posted October 16, 2005 Author Share Posted October 16, 2005 From what I gather the HBO movie stuff is in 1080i, my TV has a native 1080i (as well as 480i and p), and the Dish942 box will display any format (not sure what the native is). I think I'll quit worrying and just enjoy the show. But then again, according to dragonfyr I need to ditch my TV so that will weigh heavy on my mind.[] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zen Traveler Posted October 16, 2005 Share Posted October 16, 2005 I did the same test with my Sheryl Crow DVD, "C'mon America," alongside DirectTV's HD NET presentation of the concert about a year ago. After switching back and forth numerous times I was able to see a slight improvement on the HD picture quality which became more apparent the longer I compared. What I thought was interesting was that the directtv feed (samsung DTV unit) was several dB louder than my Denon DVD 3910. I had both the 1080i HD signal and the 480p running through component to my Mitsubishi. I haven't done any comparing since. I agree with most of what has been said here, but I am not holding my breath for the time HD "disks" become available and catch on. I wouldn't be surprised within the next 2 to 5 years HD media will be ala cart, through cable, phone and satellite. Folks will be allowed (for a fee) to copy this material on a DVR device. That's my 2 cents.[] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragonfyr Posted October 16, 2005 Share Posted October 16, 2005 But then again, according to dragonfyr I need to ditch my TV so that will weigh heavy on my mind.[] Huh? Did I say you needed to "ditch your TV"? Now I am certainly not going to be foolish enough to say that we wouldn't all be well served by doing exactly that, but if you check out the full sites below, I think they will explain, in great detail - without the format of the monitor or conversion process getting in the way, which format is indeed superior. As much of what we are actually comparing when we A/B formats is the difference in brightness, just as A/B ing audio systems are critically influenced by SPL levels! And both can easily result in false evaluations. http://alvyray.com/DigitalTV/default.htm http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,1558,1573979,00.asp My only real concerns, as each is certainly entitled to do whatever enlightened or loony thing they like, is that 1.) now is not a prudent time to be an early adopter when the industry is still such an extreme state of flux, unless you just have the spare money to burn, as well as 2.) a concern that for the available limited content combined with the fact that all legacy material is limited to its original resolution and cannot be improved by newer formats. And spending Multi-K$ to see the Simpson's or Ompah or even football in High Def is simply not an advantage I covet.Oh wait, I forgot Jerry Springer! So forget everything I said! Maybe it is worth the investment![] But have fun. But 720p is superior to 1080i, and both are better then the previously existing formats! [] So have fun. But spend your money wisely! Or if you just get off on spending it, PM me and I will provide a routing and account number so that you can avoid the additional temptation![] PS. ...as regarding everyone's ideas about recording High Def content! Forget the notions of processing material as you are used to doing now! 'Them days' is quickly disappearing! The new DRM procedures will preclude most of your ideas regarding that! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
damonrpayne Posted October 16, 2005 Share Posted October 16, 2005 The only chance I have had of doing a direct comparison is comparing the DVD of Alien vs. Predator to the HBO high-def on my 1080i TV. I can definately say 1080i is better than 480p at least in this case. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toddvj Posted October 16, 2005 Share Posted October 16, 2005 About 7 months ago I had the opportunity to compare Gladiator on DVD to a HDNET broadcast in 720p. I was hard pressed to tell the difference. I swapped back and forth between the 480p (Denon DVD-2200) and the broadcast version. It sounded different (the broadcast)...less dynamic maybe, not drastic. Picture quality was very close, in fact my friends could not tell which was which (I knew since the DVD had the small black bars and the broadcast version was 16:9). I was using a Mitsubishi WD-62725. I think you are incorrect in saying that you watched Gladiator on HDNet broadcast in 720p. First I don't think they ever aired that movie, unless you are talking about the boxing movie with Cuba Gooding, Jr. Second HDNet uses 1080i, not 720p. And Third, If they had shown the movie, it would have been OAR, meaning it would have the "small black bars," just like the DVD. A big point that folks are missing here (a couple people have touched on it) is that resolution isn't everything. It is possible to watch a 1080i (or 720p for that matter) movie that could look worse than 480p. The problem with the Satellite Companies is that they compress the Heck out of their movies. If you watch a movie on say, ABC from an off-air antenna, it will almost ALWAYS look better than something form HBO-HD, not because of the whole 720p vs. 1080i debate, but because it is less compressed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragonfyr Posted October 16, 2005 Share Posted October 16, 2005 Knowing how this site loves emotional arguments in lieu of hard information, I have broken down some of the the individual links to make it easier for those who will spend days debating, but relatively little time getting reliable answers, so that they can actually get the info about which so many are debating! And if you look, you will find the debate between 480 'anything' and 720p or 1080i moot! 480p/i aren't even defined as HDTV![] So, while it will take allot of the fun out of the site, check out the two sites! Between the two I suspect they address just about every topic, including all of the ones you want to speculate about![] But please be careful, we don't want anyone to learn too much here! Compression: http://alvyray.com/DigitalTV/default.htm Necessary compression due to bandwidth limitations: http://alvyray.com/DigitalTV/default.htm Network plans/formats: http://alvyray.com/DigitalTV/default.htm CEA Expands Definitions for Digital; Clear Labels Benefit Consumers and Retailers http://alvyray.com/DigitalTV/default.htm FAQs & Quotes: http://alvyray.com/DigitalTV/default.htm http://alvyray.com/DigitalTV/default.htm DTV versus HDTV - half of the debates here aren't even comparing apples with apples! http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,1558,1573979,00.asp the ENTIRE SITE! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nuclearay Posted October 17, 2005 Author Share Posted October 17, 2005 Perusing the movie channels last night I finally found a movie that I have in my collection: Bubba Ho Tep. One of my all time favorites!! I didn't watch it last night (my eyes were about to slam shut) but I did find a repeat to record later on. I think this was off of Voom Monster.I can't wait to sit down and A/B the DVD vs. Satellite at some point this week. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Petrol Posted October 17, 2005 Share Posted October 17, 2005 Perusing the movie channels last night I finally found a movie that I have in my collection: Bubba Ho Tep. One of my all time favorites!! I didn't watch it last night (my eyes were about to slam shut) but I did find a repeat to record later on. I think this was off of Voom Monster. I can't wait to sit down and A/B the DVD vs. Satellite at some point this week. I would think that your recorder would effect any honest comparision... btw, I have enjoyed watching nature shows on comcast's INHD channels that I wouldn't have bothered to watch 30 seconds of on my old 27" 480i trinitron... besides that, some of the HD programing (eye candy) is of such visual quality that it's near hypnotic (especially the special FHM men's magizine FHM Uncovered" behind-the-scenes look at photo shoots of some of the worlds sexiest women... HOLY MOLY!!) I have found that, at least with my budget Sony KDF-E42A10, that I think has a native resolution of 720p, some DVDs are great while others are pitiful. I atribute that to the DVD, not my player or TV. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zen Traveler Posted October 17, 2005 Share Posted October 17, 2005 After lurking in forums for the last two years I should know this but I can't seem to put my finger on the answer. What would/should be the difference in picture quality when I am watching a movie on Shotime or HBO in high def (1080i for me) vs. the same movie through my DVD player (480p). I haven't been able to find a movie I own and A/B compare it up against what has been playing lately. [8-)] I think the key words here are "would" and "should." After reading through dragonfyr's informative links (with a tear in my eye--I get emotional like the rest of us folks on the Klipsch site[:'(]) I stand by my observations regarding what WE are seeing on our monitors comparing 480p through our DVD players and 1080i (or 540I if that is what the industry is going to start calling it) on Showtime through Directtv. [] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zamboniman Posted October 17, 2005 Share Posted October 17, 2005 I have to disagree somewhat regarding information in the links provided. The argument of "i" vs "p" has a lot of merit on paper and "electrically" when bandwidth is considered. There's no doubt that 720p has advantages for certain situations. HOWEVER, the statements that 480p is as good or better than 1080i is downright absurd..... and that when compared side by side that it's indistinguishable.. (given good source material on both sides) The brain has a wonderful ability to put the interlaced frames together..... And yes it can have more flicker technically (not necessarily noticalble) and jaggies can be seen at times with certain types of motion... Bottom line is that to the eye and brain.. 1080i IS 1080 lines of resolution (sure it's 540 at a time) but to the brain it's 1080 with only occasional artifacts with 90% of the source material out there. Anybody wants to argue this fact you have an invite to come over to my place and view it directly on my setup. I'm using a CRT front proj. setup that I can "Natively" drive with whatever resolution I want. If I can send it..... It will show it Natively! No fixed pixel structure to deal with. 100" diagnol 16x9 screen. Given this setup and screen size differences in 480 I and P ..... 720P .... and 1080I are immediatly noticable... 1080I provides the FAR superior picture 90% of the time. I think the majority of one's opinions on what looks better with regards to HD is extremely skewed by smaller screen sizes, fixed pixel projection limitations and the internal video processing that goes with it, and lastly compression by content providers. On smaller screens (say less than 60 or so inches) the differences become much harder to distinguish.... and then it may become a moot point. But for very large displays true HD has been the best thing to happen. I would say probably 95% of HD displays being sold right now are fixed pixel based with some type of front end conversion processing heading off the signal. This causes a huge issue regarding what you perceive as the better input signal becuase perhaps your display just does a better job with one over the other.. I'm sure this will cause a stir.... but I'll say it again.... You want to see it.... Come on over.. I always give this demo to folks that are interested... And it's always unanimous. 1080i takes the cake for overall content. 720 pretty good... if what you are watching is constantly in high motion?? Auto race?? And 480 p or i is just not in the same league..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toddvj Posted October 17, 2005 Share Posted October 17, 2005 Knowing how this site loves emotional arguments in lieu of hard information, I have broken down some of the the individual links to make it easier for those who will spend days debating, but relatively little time getting reliable answers, so that they can actually get the info about which so many are debating! And if you look, you will find the debate between 480 'anything' and 720p or 1080i moot! 480p/i aren't even defined as HDTV![] dragonfyr, why did you post 6 links to the exact same URL? You must Really like that website. Anyway, I thought the debate here was comparison of DVD vs. HDTV, not 720p vs 1080i??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragonfyr Posted October 17, 2005 Share Posted October 17, 2005 Each link within the url was intended to link to a different topic!!!!!!!! And almost all of the topics have become a subject of discussion in the various responses made here. Or at least that was the intent!!! The links, as pulled from each indexed topic, reduce to the same default link and do not translate correctly, so you need to actively access each topic from within the site! So, the intent was legit, if the execution leaves something to be desired! ...Not sure why that site functions that way! And the site is exceptional in its analysis, not to mention that the source is a 'whos it' in the development of the HDTV format. Oh, and regarding another issue mentioned, 480p is not HDTV! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bytor33 Posted October 17, 2005 Share Posted October 17, 2005 I agree with zamboniman. I'm sick of all this crap I hear all the time about how bad 1080i is compared to 720p. If 720p was so superior to 1080i more of the major networks would use it instead of wasting bandwidth with 1080i. They're both excellent formats. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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