Bass extension requirements for 2 channel music?

[J.4knee]

Yea but that is not what I asked. I'm curious as to what insturments are making this super low notes with these recordings. Maybe they are made with a synthesizer or maybe not I don;t know the groups being discussed so I asked! why the smart a$$ response?

Craig,

You were not the only one befuddled on that.

[formica]

First off, I just wanted to mention that I too was surprised by the

quantity of low frequency content on these CDs... It does

confirm that that my khorns do sound better with my subwoofer on,

rather than off.

This is an older list but it has some CDs with deep

bass on them too

hmmm... I can pull out my copy of "Tyranny For

You" by Front 242 and see how it tests compared to what they give...

Do you have Blue Man Group's 'Audio' on CD or

DVD-A? Would be interesting to know how deep some of that goes.

I do have it on DVDA... I can scan the video side as the

DVDA side requires the most recent PowerDVD (an upgrade I'm apparently

not eligible for). Is there a song in particular you'd like to

see as you may know the disk better than me?

So far, it's getting an occasional 26Hz passage...

... it seems to me I get plenty of clear 32.7 Hz

from my LP player, not to mention undertones from bass drums.

Interesting, I hadn't heard of different mastering curves for CDs and

LPs outside of RIAA equalization.

I think RIAA curve is the one he was referring to. I don't have the exact curve but from Wikipedia you get:

"RIAA equalization is a specification for the correct playback of

vinyl records.... RIAA equalization is not a simple low-pass

filter. It carefully defines roll-off points in three places - 75µS,

318 µS and 3180µS, which correspond to 2122 Hz, 500 Hz and 50 Hz (the

last being a high-pass to combat rumble)."

ROb

[pauln]

Give it a rest. Those of us that listen to MUSIC don't need to hear this junk down low played at absurd levels. My LaScalas are slightly too bass heavy on some of my records. Maybe some of you out there just don't hear bass very well?

[TheSoundBroker]

Damn Formica...NICE choice of music! Front 242, Massive Attack...how

about some Front Line Assembly? All big favorites of mine. I never get

tired of Tyrrany for You. Try Skinny Puppy's "Too Dark Park"

album...some MASSIVE stuff on there. I have just about everthing

all of those afformentioned groups have done. If you are into

Industrial, huge subs are an absolute requirement. Try playing them

thru a system with the big Danley Labs DTS-20 sub, probably the only

sub out there a pair of K-Horns will have a hard time keeping up

with...it is a tapped horn loaded, skull shattering, foundation

breaking 125 db at 20hz sub that is faster than the THX Ultra 2 sub

setup and is way too much fun!

[sfogg]

"Those of us that listen to MUSIC don't need to hear this junk down low played at absurd levels."

Ask K'Horn owners how many of them could be happy with the bass from a

LaScala after living with K'Horns. And K'Horns aren't the last word in

bass response either.

"Maybe some of you out there just don't hear bass very well?"

Maybe... or maybe some of you out there just don't know what you are missing....

Shawn

[formica]

Give it a rest. Those of us that listen to MUSIC

don't need to hear this junk down low played at absurd levels.

I have to admit that your quote is pretty good "bait" material... be

it, somewhat, un-original. I suppose I should leave you in your,

peaceful, sheltered environment...[]

Here is "TV Song" by Blue Man Group with some pretty intensive 26Hz to

46Hz material... The DVDV seems to roll off pretty close to

26Hz, which, BTW, is below what a pair of Khorns will put out.

[formica]

how about some Front

Line Assembly? All big favorites of mine. I never get tired of Tyrrany for You.

I don't have all of FLA's albums but any suggestions? In the mean time, here is the Front Line

Assembly mix of Headhunter... the most

impressive FLA mix I can think of. The

10Hz output seems to support that...

[formica]

Although Front242's "Tragedy (for you)" doesnt seems to have much bass

extension below the 20Hz ... "Soul Manager" on the same album has

pretty impressive response down to 10Hz.

[homemade]

I've said it many times on this forum but my homebuilt khorns benefit greatly from a 12inch subwoofer. The khorn is way down at 35hz and needs some help there. My subwoofer models at 27hz at f3. I do believe though that if a speaker is flat to the 35-40hz range the bass will be pretty good and deep and if I had a Cornwall it might be sufficient for most 2 channel music but you can't have a horn speaker that is -10db at 40hz to not sound bass shy!! I was getting by with eq.ing it 12db at 30hz or so but one day ran across this 12inch subwoofer (car model) on ebay for cheap and I had the cabinet already so I bit. Purchased a 250watt plate amp and couldn't be happier. It doesn't really take much for the 12inch to keep up with the khorns at a little less than ear splitting levels. I probably have it overboosted at 40hz but that's the way I like it. FM radio even sounds better with it. Organ music-no contest.

[homemade]

One of my favorite LP's (from my LP days) was a Moody Blues album that featured a real low freq. at the end of the song(probably was only in the 35hz range thogh). I took that record over to the Klipsch dealer and had him play it through some LaScalas and didn't hear non of the low bass at all. Very dissappointed. The salesman said that by looking at he grooves he could tell that they weren't really that low or loud! I'll have to dig out that album and record it onto a cd and find out how low it actually was. Can't even remember the song since I haven't listened to it in years. The song came out in the early 70's. There was a lot of music in the 60's that had a low freq. overtone. How about Simon and Gargunkels Bridge over Troubled water (or was it boxer) as an example. Probably lows in the 3-40's.

[NOSValves]

Well I still want to know on the specific groups/tracks youre using what instruments are making the low bass. The music I listen too generally has bass guitar/stand up and drums to make low bass and as far as I know they do not reach much below 40Hz if that. I don't listen to much music produced by synthesizers and the like so to me I'm missing just about nothing. I own subs and for the most part if I do use them there doing little or nothing. Yes you can tell a slight difference when I switch it off but I could take the music with or without no problem at all.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

Craig

[LarryC]

I don't have the exact curve but from Wikipedia you get:

"RIAA equalization is a specification for the correct playback of vinyl records.... RIAA equalization is not a simple low-pass filter. It carefully defines roll-off points in three places - 75µS, 318 µS and 3180µS, which correspond to 2122 Hz, 500 Hz and 50 Hz (the last being a high-pass to combat rumble)."

ROb

Very interesting, and thanks for helping me with this revelation. FWIW, Joule Electra preamps do not incorporate a 50 Hz rolloff, which they claim gets the bass response of a CDP and maximizes warmth and ambient recovery while admitting it could be a problem with noisy turntables or rumbly recordings. I know I don't hear those things with my JE pre.

Is this rolloff also incorporated in making LPs, or is it just for playback? Again, thanks --

Larry

[michael hurd]

"Is this rolloff also incorporated in making LPs, or is it just for playback?"

Both actually: one curve is involved when the master is cut, then the copies are pressed. If they did not use the RIAA scheme, during low frequency transients, the needle would accelerate out of the groove.

During playback, the curve is applied inversely, so that the low frequency information is obtained.

[psg]

Is that you in your avatar Michael?

Remind me to not get into a bar fight against you (not that I get into bar fights).

[michael hurd]

Nope, that is Mike Holmes, see page 1. []

[DrWho]

And that's where the problem lies...it seems the only people that claim low frequency reproduction isn't needed are those running turntables as their main source for playback. And since turntables are incapable of being very accurate below 60Hz there simply is no need for a speaker to dig that low.

Huh? That sounds rather apocryphal, my dear Dr. -- it seems to me I get plenty of clear 32.7 Hz from my LP player, not to mention undertones from bass drums.

Interesting, I hadn't heard of different mastering curves for CDs and LPs outside of RIAA equalization.

Larry

I dunno what apocryphal means, but perhaps I should elaborate a bit []

First of all, the physics of the LP do not lend itself very well to the reproduction of LF material.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RIAA_equalization

http://www.euronet.nl/~mgw/background/riaa/uk_riaa_background_1.html

Also note that in the second link, it shows how many different curves have existed over the years and no one single standard sticks out - so unless you've got a player with multiple selectable EQ sections, then you most likely have deviation between records here.

Think about it, the LF signal being cut into the LP is drastically reduced so as to minimize needle movement. When doing so, you lower the resolution of LF material on the medium. Then when you reamplify it, you are now amplifying a lower resolution signal - this exponentially requires better quality equipment throughout the entire signal chain (the EQ sections, the cutting machine, the tracking during playback, etc etc). In theory you can reproduce the LF information accurately, but you are increasingly limited by the quality of your equipment (and this is assuming you have a perfectly cut LP).

And correct me if I'm wrong, but I think a lot of players don't undo the 50Hz high pass. Or if they do, I believe the implement their own 35Hz highpass (which is only gaining about 2/3 of an octave).

Anyways, my point is that the quality of information below 60Hz just exponentially decreases...such that I can see why some people don't like hearing the extra distortion. Likewise, I can see how some people like the distortion too.

----------------------------------------

On a completely different note. Depending on how a kick drum mic is positioned, you can get frequencies as low as 5Hz! (assuming of course you have a kick mic capable of such low frequencies). In fact, when doing live sound you have to be very careful about avoiding this as you will massively clip all your equipment yet not have much percieved output. I don't have any graphs to show for this, but hopefully you can take my word that we measured it in one of the studio classes I took.

I have also seen a lot of upright acoustic basses that will dig as low as 16Hz depending on the way they're played and of course the mic'ing technique. It certainly isn't as loud as the other frequencies (say 32Hz and up), but it most certainly exists.

Also, depending on the room you're recording in you can notice some sub 20Hz material that is due to resonations of the room itself. I believe it was Pink Floyd that took advantage of this on a certain album where they recorded their drums in a round peublo mud hut thing. It was essentially a clay silo that just rang and rand at some very low frequencies which totally fattened up the sound of the toms. Very very intense sound, but you won't hear it without a subwoofer.

I should remember his name (colter is gonna kill me), but the bass player from Yes uses an octave drop on his bass guitar that sends out a seriously whomping 16Hz note. Man is that intense. I wanna say Chris Squire is the bass player?

The lowest fundamental of an acoustical full grand piano is 27.5Hz, but this is not without its own subharmonics. For example, an A0 major chord played at the lowest register yields subharmonics of:

7.1Hz, 6.6Hz, 13.8Hz, and 20.4Hz.

I know that's insanely low so let's go up to the A1 octave which has subharmonics of:

14.3Hz, 27.4Hz, 13.1Hz, 27.6Hz, and 40.7Hz.

So nearly 1/3 the range of an acoustic piano has sub 20Hz material...

I'm going to stop now as these are some of the more popular instruments that dig this low. But other interesting instruments are some of the reed ones where they are outputting square and saw-tooth waves, again most of which have very low subharmonic material.

[michael hurd]

Dr. who is correct, instruments produce harmonics, and not just pure single tones, I have some info on that to scan and post, but christmas shopping comes first.

[3dzapper]

Attempting to reproduce super low frequencies in a home envrionment is liable to do more harm than good to both the audio quality and equipment.

Rick

[LarryC]

And that's where the problem lies...it seems the only people that claim low frequency reproduction isn't needed are those running turntables as their main source for playback. And since turntables are incapable of being very accurate below 60Hz there simply is no need for a speaker to dig that low.

Larry

First of all, the physics of the LP do not lend itself very well to the reproduction of LF material.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RIAA_equalization

http://www.euronet.nl/~mgw/background/riaa/uk_riaa_background_1.html

Also note that in the second link, it shows how many different curves have existed over the years and no one single standard sticks out - so unless you've got a player with multiple selectable EQ sections, then you most likely have deviation between records here.

Think about it, the LF signal being cut into the LP is drastically reduced so as to minimize needle movement. When doing so, you lower the resolution of LF material on the medium. Then when you reamplify it, you are now amplifying a lower resolution signal - this exponentially requires better quality equipment throughout the entire signal chain (the EQ sections, the cutting machine, the tracking during playback, etc etc). In theory you can reproduce the LF information accurately, but you are increasingly limited by the quality of your equipment (and this is assuming you have a perfectly cut LP).

And correct me if I'm wrong, but I think a lot of players don't undo the 50Hz high pass. Or if they do, I believe the implement their own 35Hz highpass (which is only gaining about 2/3 of an octave).

Anyways, my point is that the quality of information below 60Hz just exponentially decreases...such that I can see why some people don't like hearing the extra distortion. Likewise, I can see how some people like the distortion too...

But other interesting instruments are some of the reed ones where they are outputting square and saw-tooth waves, again most of which have very low subharmonic material.

Hey, doc, thanks for the massive elaboration. I was reacting a bit to doubts that TT's are not that accurate below 60Hz and don't need subwoofers. Might be, though, as long as us K-horn owners can get our 32.7 tones and hear the deep vague rumble of bass drums.

While I was aware of the function of the RIAA curve in both record pressing and playback equaliziation so far as the high-frequency over-emphasis and low-frequency de-emphasis in recording are concerned, I was completely unaware of, and very surprised about, the third factor in the RIAA curve, the rolloff of frequencies centered on 50 Hz and dropping 6db per octave below that.

Your web-sources make it clear that this was to reduce TT rumble -- how 1950's-60's!! I'm almost certain that today's high-quality TTs simply don't have that problem. While some LPs supposedly might (I've almost never heard it), it almost seems like an outmoded feature. I am not at all familiar with whether other phono preamp manufacturers leave out the 50-Hz rolloff.

That said, you make a compelling case that many recordings go way down in VLF and subsonic material, and LP/TT limitations are still likely, so perhaps you're giving good reasons not to throw it out completely.

Very informative! Again, thanks.

Larry

[garymd]

One of my favorite LP's (from my LP days) was a Moody Blues album that featured a real low freq. at the end of the song(probably was only in the 35hz range thogh). I took that record over to the Klipsch dealer and had him play it through some LaScalas and didn't hear non of the low bass at all. Very dissappointed. The salesman said that by looking at he grooves he could tell that they weren't really that low or loud! I'll have to dig out that album and record it onto a cd and find out how low it actually was. Can't even remember the song since I haven't listened to it in years. The song came out in the early 70's. There was a lot of music in the 60's that had a low freq. overtone. How about Simon and Gargunkels Bridge over Troubled water (or was it boxer) as an example. Probably lows in the 3-40's.

I'm guessing the song you are trying to remember is "Question." It's one of the 2 or 3 songs in my entire music collection that I feel sounds better with my sub turned on.