Small...Large 5.1...6.1???

[colterphoto1]

Perhaps Seadog has discered the difference, With a full range 3-way cabinet, the first crossover point is octaves below where it would be in say a 2-way reference setup of equal stature. Say comparing the Cornwall to RF7. I'm crossing over at 700 or so, the RF at what, 2200? That's quite a difference.

Remember that for movie sound, as in my center channel dissertation, that when there is a horrific loud LF sound effect on screen, there is rarely a critical dialog track happening at the same time. HT speakers simply are not called upon to do both simultaneously.

Michael

[MrMcGoo]

The Khorn and LaScala suffer the least from doppler distortion because of the 15 inch woofer and horn loading. The 15 inch woofer rarely needs to move more than a sixteenth of an inch in its bass bin.

Non-horn loaded 15 inch drivers have to move farther to produce the same SPL and can produce doppler.

In any case, bass cancellations are still an issue with multiple drivers. Also, subwoofers produce better bass below 40 Hz. The RSW-15 has a 650 watt amp and the THX Ultra2 subs also have a big amp.

Many Heritage owners use subwoofers. A good crossover point for a Khorn would be from 50 to 60 Hz. The same rules apply: the crossover should be one full octave above the speaker's F3 which would be 60 Hz. Again, the full range speaker plays below the crossover point per the slope of the crossover used.

Bill

[colterphoto1]

My point is this. That the director has a massive subwoofer and discreet .1LFE channel at his disposal. On MOST movie soundtracks (we are talking about HT only here, right) why on earth would there be any substantial information recorded on the main tracks below say 40 or 60 Hz? If it's not there, why bother filtering it out. For what little is left in those channels on purpose, but the director, I'd like to hear it come from where it routed it during mixdown.

[lavinius]

Mcgoo,

You went way over my head with doppler distortion. I'm curious if you feel like sharing.

I have heard when dis-similar drivers produce the same frequencies the result can be less bass. I knew a smart guy a long time ago when I was into car stuff who talked me out of using 10" woofers in conjunction with 12". Since the 5.1 soundtracks are divided up then wouldn't you think that most of the low rumbling comes from the .1 and is not sent to the mains? That is, as long as you don't set LFE OUT to BOTH.

When the speakers are set to large then there's no high pass at all, right? When you talk about setting the mains as low as 50hz then I'm assuming you're talking about a subsonic filter, which as far as I know isn't included with my receiver.

Doppler distortion aka frequency modulation distortion happens when one driver tries to produce a higher and lower frequency at the same time. Paul Klipsch claimed that as long as the woofer excursion was less than a sixteenth of an inch it would not be a problem. Horn loaded bass keeps the excursion below a sixteenth of an inch. Reference bass is not horn loaded.

Imagine the woofer going in and out an eigth of an inch with an explosion while a male actor is speaking. The woofer is trying to go in and out at 500 Hz while it is going in and out at 50 Hz at the same time. You get the same effect as a police siren going away from you; there is a "smearing" of the sound.

If you let the sub handle the explosion, you still hear the explosion, but the voice is more easily understood. If you want more bang, just turn up the sub. It will still appear to be coming from your mains or surrounds.

Bill

...but the dialogue is basically 90% on the center chanel and you can cross that over to say 100Hz by seting that to Small, i noticed in Master and Comander that the cannons shooting is much better when I set my RB35s to large and RC35 to small.

My Yamaha crosses to about 100Hz the center chanel if set to small, so it's ok for dialogue, i can also apply parametric eq on the center chan to lift the vocal range if needed be but explosions sound much much better when I have my RB35s set to large and I don't hear any distorsion.

When it comes to bass i think its the amount of air that the woofer moves that makes the impact, hence both a 12" and a 15" tune to 20hz would almost sound the same but the 15" will have more impact, I really don't like overpowering bass hence I like to crossover at about 60hz if not 55hz, this only employs the sub to do it's thing and watching a movie feels better, crossing at 80Hz will just have the sub rumble non stop through out a movie and it just feels unrealistic, little things moving around in a movie don't shake your house if it would be in real life! like a glass of water droped on a wooden floor with the sub crossed at 80hz as per THX makes a really unrealistic sound as if a 200kg bag o cement hit the floor, having my sub crossed at 55Hz cancels that out and the RB35's can reproduce the glass hitting the wooden floor more convincingly then otherwise.

[MrMcGoo]

There are folks that mix movies on the Internet. What little that I know about mixing is from them.

Dialog does not come only from the center channel. When an actor is stage right or left, the center and right or left main are used for dialog. Movies may be mixed down to about 40 Hz on the full frequency channels.

If you want the sub to handle all frequencies below 40 Hz, you still need to crossover at 60 to 80 Hz to blend well as a general rule, i.e., the one octave rule applies. Again, a crossover is not a brick wall. It has a mathematical slope.

Unique room, electronic and speaker combinations can certainly cause variations from the general rules. What does not change is physics and acoustics.

I use Master and Commander in DTS as a reference DVD. My RF-7s are set as small with a global crossover at 80 Hz. When the cannon shots hit, I want to duck.

Bill

[HTADDICT]

I agree with colter, who made george lucas god of thx, I'll belive him when he comes and sets up my sytem in my house, thx is a bunch of BS if you ask me.

[MrMcGoo]

If THX is such a bunch of BS, then why do all receiver manufacturers try to emulate all of the THX technologies even if they do not certify their equipment? Why does the Klipsch Ultra2 system that has an MSRP of about $10,000 for 5.1 have such a good reputation for movies?

Why is Lucas Film's Indutrial Light and Magic considered the best special effects house on the planet? Gearge has been THE leader in movie technology ever since the first Star Wars came out. It's too bad that he is not as good at directing as he is on the technology end.

Even Dolby has been a follower of THX at times. The first Surround EX movie was Star Wars I made by Lucas. Dolby LATER improved the Surround EX process through the use of Prologic II to decode the matrixed surrround back channel.

Bill

[westcott]

If THX is such a bunch of BS, then why do all receiver manufacturers try to emulate all of the THX technologies even if they do not certify their equipment? Why does the Klipsch Ultra2 system that has an MSRP of about $10,000 for 5.1 have such a good reputation for movies?

Why is Lucas Film's Indutrial Light and Magic considered the best special effects house on the planet? Gearge has been THE leader in movie technology ever since the first Star Wars came out. It's too bad that he is not as good at directing as he is on the technology end.

Even Dolby has been a follower of THX at times. The first Surround EX movie was Star Wars I made by Lucas. Dolby LATER improved the Surround EX process through the use of Prologic II to decode the matrixed surrround back channel.

Bill

Mr. McGoo,

I think HD's language was a little abrupt and extreme, but I have to agree with the premise that you do not need THX licensing on your product to make good equipment. It is a great marketing tool and many manufactuers are finding themselves succombing to the pressures to include the label on at least one component in their line up, but this hardly makes it "the" equipment to buy.

I like the idea of minimum standards and I guess there is no way around it in this world of misleading marketing, but I would hate to see it turn into a "Monster" , if you get my play on words.

[MrMcGoo]

I do have to giggle every time I see an over priced Monster THX cable in CC. The only THX pieces that I have owned are receivers. I do not like the speakers because they are over priced and don't keep up on music IMO, Klipsch THX subs excepted.

What my point is that when Lucas owned THX they did scientific experiments that should not be ignored. (Lucas Film sold THX a few years back.) You do not have to use THX equipment to benefit from what has been learned to a certain extent.

Most folks will not read the Harman white paper on bass reproduction, much less utilize it. Yet good bass is available when you set speakers to small per tHX and have a capable sub that is set up correctly.

Or should we throw out science and engineering and just do what makes us happy even if it does not faithfully reproduce the movie as it was engineered?

Bill

[westcott]

I do have to giggle every time I see an over priced Monster THX cable in CC. The only THX pieces that I have owned are receivers. I do not like the speakers because they are over priced and don't keep up on music IMO, Klipsch THX subs excepted.

What my point is that when Lucas owned THX they did scientific experiments that should not be ignored. (Lucas Film sold THX a few years back.) You do not have to use THX equipment to benefit from what has been learned to a certain extent.

Most folks will not read the Harman white paper on bass reproduction, much less utilize it. Yet good bass is available when you set speakers to small per tHX and have a capable sub that is set up correctly.

Or should we throw out science and engineering and just do what makes us happy even if it does not faithfully reproduce the movie as it was engineered?

Bill

Mr. McGoo,

I guess I should have elaborated on the second point which is crossover settings.

Since I do not have separate amplifiers YET, I use a crossover of 60Hz with my 3805. I found 80Hz too directional for my liking and the Large setting just plain bad. I wish Denon provided a 70Hz setting.

I agree that maybe if I did have adequate power, I could go with a lower crossover, but I too have to use a universal setting and with the RS7's in the back, I feel this would also compromise the overall sound if set too low, no matter how much amplification I had. Since the RS7's receive far less sound information, I am comfortable with the compromise. I could see where a two channel listener may prefer a setting of Large with "adequate" speakers and amplification because directionality is really not a big thing when presenting a sound stage over two channels.

But, for the average system lacking exceptional speakers and separate signal processing and power, I think 80 Hz is great advice. Less load on the receiver, no directionality issues, cleaner power going to the speakers that need it most, and potentially more power for the speakers without their own adequate amplification (sub).

[MrMcGoo]

Two channel users are always free to use stereo direct that is available to bypass the crossover. All it takes is a capable amp. The other side of that coin is that a properly integrated subwoofer may sound better than stereo direct depending on room acouctics, speakers, amps etc.

Folks need to try it both ways. More bass is not always better. Tight bass that is well defined is what I prefer. It is a learned preference.

Everyone is free to experiment as long as they realize that they may clip their speakers and fry tweeters when they run speakers as large on receivers. Receivers generally lack sufficient power to run speakers as large in an action movie.

Bass takes boatloads of power due to the basic physics involved. Hence 99.9% of receivers are designed to run speakers set as small even if the manufacturer does not explicitly state this fact. Most receivers, even flagships have a single pair of output devices per channel. A good separate amp may have 5 to 8 pairs per channel.

My receiver that I use as a processor weighs 68 pounds plus, but does not have the power to run RF-7s set as large in a 5.1 system, much less a 7.1 system. It can handle 4 ohm loads, but not 2.8 ohms mimimum impedance.

Hertage speakers do not need as much current as RF-7s, but they do benefit from adeqaute current.

Bill

[HTADDICT]

Thanks westcott, yeah I came off a little gruff there, My only reason for saying that is, there is a lot of power and money behind a thx liscensing, and in the end the little guy ends up $paying for it$. I fought getting ICAR certified tooth and nail, because I know it's a racket, you pay them a couple of hundred bucks per test and they give you a patch that's worth a buck and a half that says your certified to do repairs. It's nothing more that a pyramid scheme if you ask me, the tests are not hard, and an ICAR patch says absolutely nothing about your abilities.

If people need that thx liscensing to feel good about their purchase, that's ok by me too. But to be fair, yes george lucas has been a great pioneer, and it's good to standardize things if they are done well and for the right reasons. Just be aware that it does have a very good potential to shut out any other advancement's that don't seem to fit the THX platform, or for any other reason that the "powers that be" decide to come up with.

I do not think that the THX technology is bad, I just don't care for any process that says unless you have the thx badge, you probably aren't as good. Maybe BS was a little harsh[:$]

[Skidmarks]

I have been reading through all the posts (most of which is over my head) and decided to try some of the ideas youve talked about here, My original settings had the front 3 channels set to large and the back 2 RS7s set to small. I set the rears to large and turned the level up on the middle RC7, with the crossovers set to 60hz. Using material from Lord of the Rings 3, Fantastic4, and Master and Commander. It was a more loud ,brash booming type of sound dialogue was too low, but when it was loud, it was very loud, almost noisy and hard on the ears.

It would be the kind of experience most shoppers watching a bose demo at BB would be incined to buy, but i know it wasnt right. I drove 3 hours to the nearest Klipsch dealer for a demo, and purchased most of the same equipent I demoed (taking under consideration the room acoustics would be different) so I knew I could do better.

I then decided to try the THX settings talked about here, I set all speakers to small , crossovers at 80hz, reset the levels back to the original settings, and resampled the same material, it was a complete change, very unexpected, the dialogur was clear and sharp, the LFE was thunderous and deep, well defined, I actually had to turn the sub down a bit, cause it was shaking things I didnt want shaking. The definition from each channel was intense. I was very pleased with the results, the only changes made since then was turning up the levels to the rears a bit. thanks for the suggestions

[westcott]

I have been reading through all the posts (most of which is over my head) and decided to try some of the ideas youve talked about here, thanks for the suggestions

Now, go grab an SPL meter from Radio Shack and set the distances and dB levels to match and you will be well on the way to sound goodness!!! (assuming your receiver allows this data to be entered into the system)

Good Luck and I am glad you were willing to experiment and decide for yourself what works best with your equipment and environment.

Happy Holidays!

[ygmn]

Some systems let you enter in time delay for each speaker in mSeconds...in lieu of distances...

1mSecond is about a foot.....

and you want the distances to be such tha from the center main listening position the speakers are set at the same relative distance (time)...

[colterphoto1]

Glad that setup worked for you Skidmarks.

Here's my final entry into this thread.

Skid has RC7 and RS7's. I consider them SMALL and would set them as such.

My surrounds are CORNWALLS. I set them as large. My center is KLF-C7, I do set it to SMALL, it works better that way.

If anyone would ever really compare a RS7 to a Cornwall, I think you'd find them to be a bit different.

We have completely different setups, different settings apply to these systems. I still say that it's a waste paying all that money for RF7 and setting them to SMALL, but if you like the sound, so be it.

No one is right (no, not even George Lucas) all the time. What makes each enjoy his system is right for them.

Peace Brothers.

Michael

[MrMcGoo]

We have completely different setups, different settings apply to these systems. I still say that it's a waste paying all that money for RF7 and setting them to SMALL, but if you like the sound, so be it.

No one is right (no, not even George Lucas) all the time.

My view is simply that the settings that produce the best sound should be used. Due to wavelengths that are from 10 to 100 feet long, bass frequencies from mutilple drivers tend to cancel and interact etc. The real waste is setting a speaker so that it kills the sound.

RF-7s are solid down to 40 Hz in my room. Even set as small and crossed at 80 Hz, they play down to 40 Hz due to the slope of the crosover. RF-7s set as small have a much greater presence than bookshelf speakers and integrate better with the subwoofer..

Skidmarks results are the norm. It is simple physics.

Bill

[Skidmarks]

I did not completly throw out the YPAO settings, My distances where within a half inch of the mics position after pulling out a tape measure . I set the mic in the middle of the rectangular room , at about 4' off the ground, which is my favorite listening position , and most of the distances varied from 9-11' from the mics position. I left that alone, but will experiment more with positioning in the future.(and will pick up an SPL meter and learn to use it.)

[bookman]

I agree with Mr. McGoo. Set to large my Khorns did in

fact sound "larger". I went back to small M/C/SB and the audio was

tighter. The center (Chorus) was the biggest plus w/ the small setting.

This is not major IMO, as both ways still sounded good. My receiver

(Pioneer 912x) has a feature which allows a LFE signal to be sent to

SB. In my system this is a Chorus. The bass sounds like a large

sub. I'm powering with B&K amps (ST140) which my Klipsch

speakers love.

[Hunt]

I am so confused by this ongoing debate, that I switch back and forth from large to small about every month. I'm still not sure which sounds better, but lately I've been sticking to small (crossed at 80) for RC-7, RS-7s and my RCW-5's, with large on the RF-7's. This seems to work well for me, but I still love reading the pros and cons that surface each time this debate is resurrected. Keep up the good work guys! (I'm gonna try those rf-7s on small again, and lower that crossover to 60, just for the fun of it.)