colterphoto1 Posted December 12, 2005 Author Share Posted December 12, 2005 YEAH, Now we're talking! Thanks Dean, got any more of those. Those DFH white papers are always such a cool read. Now I'm understanding. I also get from Al's last bit that it might not be a simple- add parts to add slope- that more is involved in balancing and tweaking the values of the network. Seems that each part affects others around it, that is the magic of xovers, no? Possibly I'd just need to start fresh with building from scratch the B3 networks? Depending on what changes took place from B2 to B3. Say, do any of the guys who won the Book of DFH papers at the Hope Gathering have anything on this? Thanks, Michael Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted December 12, 2005 Share Posted December 12, 2005 "...that I would probably enjoy changing or updating my CW's to the B3 network if this would be adviseable." The only thing I can come up with against the idea is that we don't know the sensitivity of the midrange drivers they plugged into those things after they dumped the K-55. What I would do is run the B2 network with the tweeter section of the B3 (just change .25mH to .13mH in the tweeter filter). "Does that 2nd order also hold true with the low pass sections of the network as well as the high pass sections?" Keep it simple: If you see one element it's 1st order (6dB/octave), two elements is 2nd order (12dB/octave), three elements is 3rd order (18dB/octave), and so on. "My basic understanding of this is that a cap filters out the low notes at 6 db/octave, if a choke/coil is placed in parallel with this circuit, it makes it 12 db. So far so good?" Yep, but notice in low pass filters a series inductor comes first and then the cap in parallel. Then the BIG chokes/coils are responsible for losing the high frequencies, or are the low pass sections for the woofer and squawker (when used), if a cap is placed in this circuit, it becomes 12 db/octave. How am I doing? Good. "The transformers are Klipsches way of adding resistance to various sections of the network in order to balance the sound between the three drivers..." The autoformer only handles attenuation for the squawker and tweeter. The least sensitive part of any system is the bass -- so the top is brought down to match it. "...It's just more variable with the different taps, and more power handling than using massive resistors." L-pads and series resistors divorce the damping of the amplifier from the driver so autoformers deliver much better transients. "So it should be possible to add some coils and caps to go from a B to B2 to B3, which might also involve changing some of the taps. Since the drivers stayed basically the same throughout this process, it was just the network that needs updating." All three networks used the same autoformer (T2A) as well as the same tap settings. I still see the B3 as the oddball filter in that all indications to this point are that it was never used with the K-55, but with the drivers used during what I see as the transitional period when the K-55 was dropped and they were getting ready to release the Cornwall II. Since Klipsch refuses to comment on the matter my advice is to continue to use the B3 in any Cornwall that came with it -- that doesn't have the K-55 in it. Everything else I would upgrade to the B2 while incorporating the tweeter filter of the B3. "Am I starting to get this? Is there any hope???" Sure, you've basically got it -- and there is always hope! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colterphoto1 Posted December 12, 2005 Author Share Posted December 12, 2005 Three years and 7000 posts and I'm finally getting the hang of CW networks. Thanks Dean. So... Inventory what I have. I think it's all original CW's. I only bought one set of CWII or 1.5 components I think, they'd be the only things with the K52/K701 K79 B3, right? For any B2's simply put new caps of the same values in. For any B's modify to look like the B2's knowing that any replaced caps may change in value. How about my REALLY old 1963's with the HUGE CHOKES, any value in retaining as original, or keeping those together for future sale? I suppose I could duplicate the B2 if I could get hold of some T2a transformers. However those old CW's had the Jensen P15LL woofer and the chrome tweeter, should I just forget the minor driver differences and swap a B2 in there as well? I think there would be great strides to be made if all my CW's have the same networks. Then I'll do the same process with my 6x Heresies and my 4 other LS bins (might be new xovers there...) Thanks again Dean... whew..I appreciate the time you took to painstakingly answer my questions. Maybe a few other neophyte xover junkies were also helped along the way Michael Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted December 12, 2005 Share Posted December 12, 2005 I have a quite a few of the DFH's. One I would like to have but don't is Vol. 11, No. 1, 8 June 1970. At any rate, what I have came from Gil, and it's one long .pdf -- I'll see if I can attach it here in a bit. "I also get from Al's last bit that it might not be a simple- add parts to add slope- that more is involved in balancing and tweaking the values of the network. Seems that each part affects others around it, that is the magic of xovers, no?" Well yeah, it can get really hairy. Not only do you have the slopes but also the different alignments. The nice thing about the Klipsch networks is that they are relatively simple and so a great place to start the learning process. Another nice thing is that decent compression drivers and horns don't need a lot of help from the network. Even the networks I build are relatively simple, and when you get right down to it the only real difference is that impedance of the squakwer is brought down so a low loss inductor can be used in series with the squawker to allow the use of a bandpass. At any rate, yes, there is a reactive component and each part affects others around it. It's easy to allow yourself to get buried in information that doesn't impact the project at hand. Be careful! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted December 12, 2005 Share Posted December 12, 2005 "Three years and 7000 posts and I'm finally getting the hang of CW networks. Thanks Dean." You're welcome. Incidently, it takes a while to get a grasp of this stuff -- there's still a thing or two that are really quite basic that I'm still struggling with. "I only bought one set of CWII or 1.5 components I think, they'd be the only things with the K52/K701 K79 B3, right?" Yep, leave them as B3's and just replace the caps in those. "For any B2's simply put new caps of the same values in." Yes. "For any B's modify to look like the B2's knowing that any replaced caps may change in value." The only cap that will change in value is the single 4uF which will go to 5uF. The only other thing that will need to be done to complete the upgrade is to add a 20uF cap in the low pass and a .13 coil in the tweeter section. If you want, send me one of your Type B's -- I will do the mod and send it back -- and then you will have a pattern to work from. "How about my REALLY old 1963's with the HUGE CHOKES, any value in retaining as original, or keeping those together for future sale? I suppose I could duplicate the B2 if I could get hold of some T2a transformers. However those old CW's had the Jensen P15LL woofer and the chrome tweeter, should I just forget the minor driver differences and swap a B2 in there as well?" Those '63's have some nice historic value don't you think? I would leave them all original -- seriously. What kind of shape are the cabinets in? "I think there would be great strides to be made if all my CW's have the same networks." Make the ones the same that you can make the same. Any Type B Cornwall can be made into a B2. Type B3 has to stay B3, and your '63's should stay 63's -- just cuz. You're not allowed to think about Heresys or LaScalas yet. How many pairs of Cornwalls do you have? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted December 12, 2005 Share Posted December 12, 2005 Dope from Hope .pdf attached. Dope%20From%20Hope.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted December 12, 2005 Share Posted December 12, 2005 Type B schematic. B.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted December 12, 2005 Share Posted December 12, 2005 Type B2 schematic. B2.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted December 12, 2005 Share Posted December 12, 2005 Type B3 schematic. B3.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colterphoto1 Posted December 12, 2005 Author Share Posted December 12, 2005 "How about my REALLY old 1963's with the HUGE CHOKES, any value in retaining as original, or keeping those together for future sale? I suppose I could duplicate the B2 if I could get hold of some T2a transformers. However those old CW's had the Jensen P15LL woofer and the chrome tweeter, should I just forget the minor driver differences and swap a B2 in there as well?" Those '63's have some nice historic value don't you think? I would leave them all original -- seriously. What kind of shape are the cabinets in? "I think there would be great strides to be made if all my CW's have the same networks." Make the ones the same that you can make the same. Any Type B Cornwall can be made into a B2. Type B3 has to stay B3, and your '63's should stay 63's -- just cuz. You're not allowed to think about Heresys or LaScalas yet. How many pairs of Cornwalls do you have? Here's the new stuff, I like the 63's they are my only verticals, but the cabinets are beat and the cane terribly yellowed. I would like to have them possibly for my fronts, with the idea that the narrow dispersion might give tighter soundstage, but that could be a mistake, I have to shift the Right Main out for servicing right now, so I'll put the verts in front for a trial run and put a backup pair of horizontals in rear. (right now it's Hornzontals in front and the verts in back- mistake). If I end up using the verts as mains, I'd like to reveneer them to match the others and then might change the xovers. In any case, there is currently 3 pairs of horizontals, 1 pair verts (63's) and parts from a CWII (K33, K52/K601 and K77 or K79 and B3) to build a custom center. But I also have a set of K55/K600's so I could build a matching center CW of whatever orientation I want for center. Even if I use the vert 63's in the HT and reveneer them and change the xover, I think I'd keep the original old style B's just as they are in case I ever sold them I could bring them back to original. I think there is some collector value in them, but they have scratches through the veneer that can't be repaired. Or I could keep the 63's totally as is, use any other 4 for matching HT, and build up a center CW. I also have 2 Heresies that need veneer that will be 'practice' speakers. So eventually there would be a 7.1 system of all CW with Heresey side fills. Not bad eh? Michael Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BiggerIsBetter Posted December 12, 2005 Share Posted December 12, 2005 Now that you have it all figured out, I would like to state the with "modern" caps, I prefer the sound of the B, to the B-2. I have '81 corns that came with the 51 mid drivers and a B-2. This is just one person's opinion in 1 situation. I have been doing a lot of changes so I have not taken the time to over analyze every change. The original inductors I took out of the tweeter section of the B-2 did seem to be way out of spec. But I was just too happy with the change from the B-2 to the B to double check the measurements. Cornscalas are only a few days away.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colterphoto1 Posted December 12, 2005 Author Share Posted December 12, 2005 BB, are you 2 ch or HT listener? My theory is that with louder, the higher order filter is better, with softer musics, the 6db slope might very well be preferred. M Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BS Button Posted December 12, 2005 Share Posted December 12, 2005 My Lord. What a revelation! Dope from Hope. These things never get old, never. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted December 12, 2005 Share Posted December 12, 2005 What Michael said. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Klappenberger Posted December 12, 2005 Share Posted December 12, 2005 Guys, Before you all start getting teary-eyed over the B3 network, I think you should see what the computer has to say about it. To sum it up: A 2.2 dB dip at 7000 Hz through the tweeter filter. It also makes the crossover too high for the K55 driver. The load impedance presented to the amp goes to 65 Ohms at midband. Typical squawker running full range clear to 20 Khz. I have no idea how high the K53 driver that goes with this network rolls off. That will be the crossover frequency. At least the woofer filter is pretty smooth. If you are going to build a Cornwall network from scratch, download the one on my web site and you will have something a lot better. AL K. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colterphoto1 Posted December 12, 2005 Author Share Posted December 12, 2005 I feel as though a giant weight is being lifted off of my shoulders..... Michael Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Klappenberger Posted December 12, 2005 Share Posted December 12, 2005 Guys, For contrast, here's the computer plot looking through the squawker filter of my Cornwall network (design downloadable). Smooth response and a constant 6 Ohm load to the amp. You be the judge and build which ever network you like. I don't make them any more. If you want one built, Dean does them now! Al K. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BS Button Posted December 12, 2005 Share Posted December 12, 2005 I feel as though a giant weight is being lifted off of my shoulders..... Michael Dju cut yer hare? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted December 12, 2005 Share Posted December 12, 2005 I hate building that damn thing. I raised the price to $700 just so I don't have to build them anymore![6] There is the 'Super B'. Initial feedback on that one is pretty good -- and it's a heck of a lot easier to build! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Klappenberger Posted December 12, 2005 Share Posted December 12, 2005 Dean, WAA.. waa! I hated building them too. That's why I dumped them on you. I'll be you thought I was doing you a favor! Al K Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.